03.02.06
Posted in politics, culture at 1:26 pm by Brandon
If you don’t support the war in Iraq, it’d probably be best if you, at very least, tried not to look like a muslim while you did it. At least that’s the message that the State Department has been sending lately. Tariq Ramadan, a swiss citizen and world-class expert on Islamic religion was, in 2004, going to begin his teaching post at the University of Notre Dame. Rather unfortunately, Dr. Ramadan was not granted an extension on his work visa.
Dr. Ramadan was a vocal critic of the war in Iraq. And, it seems that this is all it takes to be denied entry into the United States. According to a vaguely worded portion of the patriot act, an individual can have their visa rejected for things something as simple as “ideological exclusion”. As closely as I can tell, ideological exclusion–in layperson’s terms–is the ability for the US government, without supervision or accountability, deny entrance to anyone because they suspect that that person espouses and ideology that the current administration doesn’t like.
People are denied entrance to this country because of what they believe?
This story has found its way back into the media lately. The American Association of Religion has recently challenged the Department of Homeland Security and the State Department’s revocation of Tariq Ramadan’s visa. I can’t help but support their critique.
I don’t know if I’m the only one who finds this whole debacle more than just a little bit ironic.
Seems like just a few hundred years ago that a group of patriots who were fed up with religious oppression hopped in a boat and sailed west. They established a land–a magical happy land–free from tyrrany and religious oppresion. They formed states and together those states formed into a country. And, they named that country the United States of America.
The first few winters were quite cold, and the new patriots relied on the kindness of this new land’s natives. And, they shared turkey and cornbread stufffing and they lived together in pluralism and peace.
Then one day the patriots decided that the frigid northeast of this new land wasn’t enough. They headed west. Often, they bought land from the natives, (they paid them in beads and other shit). When the natives weren’t wild about giving up their land, the patriots just took it from them; they were only savages, anyway. The patriots raped and pillaged (the land, the animals, the natives, you name it) until their hearts were content–free from tyrrany and religious oppression.
Years passed, and the patriots built big cities. And, big towers in those big cities.
One day, some people decided to fly planes into those towers. The patriots were pissed, and rightly so.
The patriots decided they needed an act to make sure that no one flew planes into buildings ever again. So, they wrote the patriot act. The patriots decided that they would be able to decide what types of ideologies and religions were “okay” and which weren’t. Because, ideologies are dangerous dammit.
I just hope the government doesn’t find out I did not and do not support the Iraq war. I might just be denied re-entry to the country. It’s days like this that I begin to wonder just how free from tyranny and religious oppression I really am.
Tags: Tariq Ramadan, Religious Freedom, Ideological Exclusion
Permalink
Trackback URL »
http://www.badchristian.com/2006/03/02/450/trackback/
Posted in politics, culture at 1:26 pm by Brandon
If you don’t support the war in Iraq, it’d probably be best if you, at very least, tried not to look like a muslim while you did it. At least that’s the message that the State Department has been sending lately. Tariq Ramadan, a swiss citizen and world-class expert on Islamic religion was, in 2004, going to begin his teaching post at the University of Notre Dame. Rather unfortunately, Dr. Ramadan was not granted an extension on his work visa.
Dr. Ramadan was a vocal critic of the war in Iraq. And, it seems that this is all it takes to be denied entry into the United States. According to a vaguely worded portion of the patriot act, an individual can have their visa rejected for things something as simple as “ideological exclusion”. As closely as I can tell, ideological exclusion–in layperson’s terms–is the ability for the US government, without supervision or accountability, deny entrance to anyone because they suspect that that person espouses and ideology that the current administration doesn’t like.
People are denied entrance to this country because of what they believe?
This story has found its way back into the media lately. The American Association of Religion has recently challenged the Department of Homeland Security and the State Department’s revocation of Tariq Ramadan’s visa. I can’t help but support their critique.
I don’t know if I’m the only one who finds this whole debacle more than just a little bit ironic.
Seems like just a few hundred years ago that a group of patriots who were fed up with religious oppression hopped in a boat and sailed west. They established a land–a magical happy land–free from tyrrany and religious oppresion. They formed states and together those states formed into a country. And, they named that country the United States of America.
The first few winters were quite cold, and the new patriots relied on the kindness of this new land’s natives. And, they shared turkey and cornbread stufffing and they lived together in pluralism and peace.
Then one day the patriots decided that the frigid northeast of this new land wasn’t enough. They headed west. Often, they bought land from the natives, (they paid them in beads and other shit). When the natives weren’t wild about giving up their land, the patriots just took it from them; they were only savages, anyway. The patriots raped and pillaged (the land, the animals, the natives, you name it) until their hearts were content–free from tyrrany and religious oppression.
Years passed, and the patriots built big cities. And, big towers in those big cities.
One day, some people decided to fly planes into those towers. The patriots were pissed, and rightly so.
The patriots decided they needed an act to make sure that no one flew planes into buildings ever again. So, they wrote the patriot act. The patriots decided that they would be able to decide what types of ideologies and religions were “okay” and which weren’t. Because, ideologies are dangerous dammit.
I just hope the government doesn’t find out I did not and do not support the Iraq war. I might just be denied re-entry to the country. It’s days like this that I begin to wonder just how free from tyranny and religious oppression I really am.
Tags: Tariq Ramadan, Religious Freedom, Ideological Exclusion
Permalink
Trackback URL »
http://www.badchristian.com/2006/03/02/450/trackback/
)
jeff said,
March 2, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Hey brandon. First of all, I agree with your assessment of this situation. But i wonder what the option is?
Since 9/11, Americans have been increasingly aware of the vulnerabilities of our freedom. We’ve come to the understanding that our freedom includes the liberty to do bad stuff to good people (or do good stuff to bad peple to???)
This is one of those issues where I believe things like ideological and racial profiling are wrong. But if I’m getting on an airplane, I’m subconsciously profiling every person that gets on that plane… and you are too, if you’re honest.
What you’ve talked about is the extreme version of this.
I guess I just cannot figure out how to balance it.
Great post!
Brandon said,
March 2, 2006 at 4:37 pm
You’re right, Jeff. If we’re honest we use stereotypes everyday. Most often, they’re incredibly helpful for making judgements.
In the situation with Tariq Ramadan, he’s not an extremist. He’s a muslim. He’s never taken part in any actions that could be remotely associated with terrorism, and in fact, one of his main areas of study is examining how Muslims can better become a part of the culture in Europe.
I guess, it’s one thing to tell a person who’s been involved in cavorting around with terrorists that we’d prefer not to have he or she in the country. But, when the government starts to decide that an IDEOLOGY is enough to bar someone access to this country, I think we’ve crossed a different line.
How does this make us any different than communist China?
That’s how I balance the situation, personally. The guy believes in a peaceful manifestation of Islam. I don’t think the US has got any business telling him that he can’t pursue those ideas here in the states.
In fact, I’d probably go so far as to argue that the US will continue to be LESS secure so long as there is an ideology of individualism that reigns.
Curious to hear your thoughts!
Recovering said,
March 2, 2006 at 6:22 pm
I’m not saying that this particular case isn’t unfortunate (although I personally won’t miss him much) but we are at war with Muslim extremists (although it’s not P.C. to say it). Could there me more to this guys’ story than can be released to the public?
Also, is there a side of this issue that hasn’t been explored yet - like the fact that many of our Constitutional protections don’t apply to aliens, legal or illegal? Just some thoughts. Good post.
A Skeptic said,
March 2, 2006 at 7:11 pm
Hey, before you go on ranting about the state department not allowing people in the the country for what they believe why don’t you educate yourself on the true nature of the religious system known as islam. Supporting the war or not is a political belief and irrelevant to your point. (I don’t like the war either.) islam is a dangerous cult determined to win the world for allah and turn all of us non-muslims into dhimmis or dead people. That does not mean that every muslim has those goals, but the ones that don’t are either ignorant of their religion, or are secular. I’d like you to thoughtfully check out: www.thereligionofpeace.com and faithfreedom.org expecially the article by ali sina and then comment back to me. By the way, neither of these sights are run by Christians.
I lived in Egypt for 3 1/2 years. I have many Muslim friends. I can easily navigate the difference between an individual and a belief system. I love my friends. I can’t stand islam.
jeff said,
March 2, 2006 at 10:45 pm
It’s difficult, Brandon. I agree with what you’re saying. I do not feel ideological profiling by itself is necessarily right, although, as ‘recovering’ stated, non-US citizens have no constitutional rights.
For me, the issue is not so much about politics as it is about fear.
The US government is acting out of sheer terror… affected by terrorism. It is my opinion that because of this type of fearful reaction that terrorism has, in a sense, already won.
Ultimately, I do not believe it is the place of the US government to legislate or control belief. This guy may be completely innocent. Or he maybe a great con-artist… no one can really know.
All I know is that because of terrorism, we are less free than we were. Only history will tell if that’s a good or a bad thing.
wildwest said,
March 3, 2006 at 8:52 am
I can play that game, too, Skeptic.
Why don’t you educate yourself on the true nature of the religious system known as christianity. christianity is a dangerous cult determined to win the world for pat robertson and turn all of us non-christians into holy-rollers or dead people. That does not mean that every christian has those goals, but the ones that don’t are either ignorant of their religion, or are secular.
I lived in the United States all my life. I have many Christian friends. I can easily navigate the difference between an individual and a belief system. I love my friends. I can’t stand christianity.
jeff said,
March 3, 2006 at 9:32 am
wildwest,
well said.
jeff
Brandon said,
March 3, 2006 at 9:34 am
A few thoughts, Skeptic.
See, I think it is relevant to my point. Tariq Ramadan’s criticism of the war as a member of Islam is what has barred him entry from the US. And, while I’m glad we agree about the war, Skeptic, I think that you’d probably also agree that if we started tossing up barriers for everyone who believed a certain way about the war, it could just as well be you or I who are out on our asses.
Humor me here, Skeptic. I’d like us to all take a look at a part of the holy scriptures.
Let me ask you this: Did God create the universe in six 24-hour days? Lots of Christians say (s)he did. Does that mean that all Christians MUST believe in the creation of the universe in six 24-hour days? I hope it doesn’t make me ignorant of my religion that I don’t.
My argument is that there are more ways than one to read this passage, and likewise, Muslims also have different understandings of their scriptures. Sure there are some extremists out there, I just doubt this guy is one of them.
It feels a little unfair for you to critique my knowlege of Islam–which is admittedly lacking (hell, I’m still trying to figure out Christianity)–when you’ve not taken the time to find out more about Tariq Ramadan. He’s written 20 books, over 700 articles, and there are a plethora of his recorded lectures circulating, have you read or listened to any of them?
Have you read the parts of his work where he calls on Muslims to reject violent extremist factions? Do you seriously believe that Imam Tariq Ramadan wants to come to the US and start an Islamic revolution bent on converting or killing Americans?
Do I think we should let individuals with known terrorist ties into the states? Of course not. Are all muslims terrorists? Of course not.
Should we bar entry to this country for everyone with a particular ideological perspective?
If we do, I fear we’ve made a very dangerous turn.
A Skeptic said,
March 3, 2006 at 9:43 am
OK wildwest, your stance is so typical and so misguided. I am definitely not a holy-roller. I certainly don’t want to turn you into a dead person. Have you watched the beheading videos with the perpetrators holding up korans in one hand and shouting “allah akbar” as they cut off innocent people’s heads? Do you honestly believe that ANYONE would do something like this while holding a Bible in one hand and shouting “Jesus loves you?” Do you really, honestly believe that they teachings of the two religions are relative? Did you know that there have been more Christian martyrs in the last 100 years than in all the the previous 1900 years combined? Did you know that Christians martyrs die for their beliefs, and muslims martyrs kill for their beliefs? I’m really sad that in your mind you think take the moral or intellectual high ground by critisizing Christianity rather than seriously looking at islam. Forget christianity for this argument. Do you defend islam? Have you looked honestly and openly at www.thereligionofpeace.com? It is NOT a Christian site! Did you see any Americans being forced into hiding after photographing a crucifix in the container of urine, or the virgin mary with elephant dung? Yet muslims riot and kill worldwide because of some cartoons?
Shaggy Doodle said,
March 3, 2006 at 9:56 am
Hey wildwest
your fascist and dangerous ideological comparison of Chritianity and Islam shows how jaded, cunical and lost you really are. If you intellectually honest - and you obviously are not - then such a copairson would not have been made. Surely, you don’t really believe that Christianity (or Pat Robertson) espouses that anyone take the life of another person or declare that we should strap on an explosives belt and kill people in the name of Christ. I am sure you were jsut using revolutionary and inflammatory speech to make a point. But this is not a proper dialog - it is propoganda. Christ does not advocate killing - Allah (and the Q’uran) does. I have read major sections of the Q’uran in the interest of study - to see for myself what the Islamic religion beleives. If you take a fair reading of both the Bible and the Q’uran, you cannot even remotely say that the two religions are the same thing. The Q’uran cannot be read for 5 pages at any point in it (start anywhere and read 5 pages, I dare you) without seeing something about killing infidels or crushing the enemies of Islam. It is not a religion based on peace, love and understanding that it’s followers have misguidedly turned into a violent faction - the very core of the beleif system is that if you are not a muslim - you should not be living. period. Only by converting to islam can you avert the hard line stance of death. If you read the Bible, you will find that God has/does/will take judgement on groups and individuals, but He also makes it very clear that He is a God of justice, and Jesus preached tolerance, forgiveness and love - not death, war and deciet. Did you know that according to the Q’uran it is permissible to lie to an “infidel (non-beleiver) for any reason? Did you know that in Islam - it’s ok to call a truce in order to ‘fall back and regroup” and then when you are ready - continue the battle? These are people who have taken the very fabric of what we consider virtues and morals and turned them around. Much like what the Bible describes when it talks about the days when they will call good evil and evil good. Listen, we can let people who have ties to violent oppressive beliefs into the country - but we’re sending them to YOUR house. ok?
and by the way - I post this anonomously - just in case I have offended a muslim so much with my free and unmoderated speech that they want to kill me.
Brandon said,
March 3, 2006 at 10:04 am
I actually did look at that site. It’s right wing propaganda…and frankly, I’d encourage a bit of temperance visiting the site, there are some rather disturbing images there.
Shaggy Doodle said,
March 3, 2006 at 10:06 am
the word was “cynical” not cunical. blame “bad typing”
)
and what difference does it make if said poster beleive in a literal 6 day creation? Of course said poster doesn’t “require” everyone else to beleive what they beleive “or else” you miss the point, again. Have YOU listened to any of this person speeches, read any of his books? Then why are you defending him? Have you lived in Egypt before as said poster has? I didn’t think so - this is a person with extensive first hand knowledge of what Islam is - unlike you, who are “still trying to figure out Christianity”
Listen NOBODY (including our dear Skeptic, advocates the barring of free travel into the US simply on the basis of ideology. Consider the ideology though - I can assure you - those at the state Department HAVE read and lsitened to all of this guys work. Thier job is protect you and if they have information that leads them to believe that this perosn might be dangerous - thenn let us err on the side of caution in this volatile political environment - this is not a US citizen we are talking about here.
get your ehad out of the sand. The real issue here is this belief that America is evil and that really, America is the enemy. If you don’t like living here - move to China. I’d like to see you discuss your political viewpoints there.
A Skeptic said,
March 3, 2006 at 10:08 am
OK Brandon. Do you think it is coincidental that the terrorists are holding korans and wearing “allah akbar” headbands? Do you think its coincidental that the terrorists honestly believe they are following their relligion? Why didn’t muslims riot worldwide when Margaret Hassen was murdered? Or Nick Johnson? Or when three little Indonesian schoolgirls had their head removed simply because they were Chrisitan? Doesn’t it strike you as strange that muslims went on a killing rampage worldwide because mohamed was insulted and that the cartoonists and their FAMILIES are in hiding because of threats to their lives?
It’s extremely frustrating to debate with people when they are not knowledgeable about the koran, the sunna, and the sira. The debate becomes dogmatic. You don’t know islam. You haven’t sat in taxis in cairo and listened to audio tapes of a screaming palestinian woman preacher expounding her hatred for jews and christians. You haven’t debated leading islamic clerics. You haven’t talked muslims that moved back to egypt after living in the US for years tell me how the world trade center bombing was perpetrated by jews, not muslims. From my experience most muslims know what they’ve been told about islam, rather than reading the ISLAMIC sources for themselves. They were shocked when I told them in the koran that mohammed is ordered to have his adopted son divorce his wife so mohamed can marry the woman. Or that his best friend abu bakr must give his SIX year old daughter to the 53 year old mohamed. Go get a koran for yourself and read it and then come back and talk to me. I don’t mean this to insult you. You have no idea how incomprehensible and illogical that book is until you read it. You have no idea how violent the book is until you read it. Tariq Ramadan may be a fine man, but islam is violent whether he wants to admit it or not.
Please, this is NOT about Christianity. It is about an ideological belief system that is diametrically opposed to freedom and democracy.
A Skeptic said,
March 3, 2006 at 10:11 am
Brandon will you please explain how thereligionofpeace.com is right wing propaganda? This guy isn’t even a Christian. Is it “right wing propaganda” because it doesn’t fit into your worldview?
wildwest said,
March 3, 2006 at 11:09 am
I don’t get it, Skeptic. I didn’t say you were a holy-roller. I didn’t even say you were a Christian. In fact, I thought you were an atheist because you called yourself “skeptic” and because you made a point of mentioning that a site you recommended wasn’t Christian.
I thought you were the guy at www.rationalrevolution.net. He has said some similar things about Islam on his blog. And he’s an atheist-type skeptic.
Then you ask how a site can be right-wing when the guy isn’t even a Christian? Don’t you know any right-wingers who aren’t Christian?
Brandon said,
March 3, 2006 at 11:31 am
Lots to deal with here. First, Skeptic you said:
You’re espousing that fundamentally Islam is about killing and freedom. I’ve been giving myself a bit of a crash course this morning in Islam. I’d like you to help me understand these quotes, then, from the Qu’ran if Muslims are fundamentally about killing Godless infidels like you and I:
These passages don’t seem to me like Islam is all about killing or converting. In fact, they seem to illustrate just the opposite. Sure you’ll find some passages in the Qu’ran that talk about exorcizing violence. But, Skeptic, you’re assuming that everything in the Qu’ran is to be taken at face value.
If this is the case and you’re a Christian, you must’ve never eaten any fat.
And, you’ve never had a bad hair day, or walked around with torn jeans:
Then, Skeptic you go on to say:
Heavens. It sounds to me like there are a whole friggin’ heavenly host of muslims who would say that you don’t know islam either. Your reading based on limited experience does not necesarily constitute expertise on your part. And, if it’s so damn frustrating to lower yourself to debate people like me, then don’t.
It’s right wing propaganda because it doesn’t show both sides of the story. It looks at radical islam and makes the assumption that ALL islam must be like radical islam. And, it’s purpose is to pursuade (i.e. the propaganda part) people that all muslims are bloodthirsty murderers.
And finally, Shaggy, you said:
See, embedded in your comment is the assumption that America is FOR people like you. I don’t get why it is that I’m the one that’s supposed to leave. You’re essentially arguing for a mono-ideological state. You know, Shaggy, to me that makes you the one who supports the same principles as the terrorists, not me. I think this is possibly the most inflammatory, ignorant, and foolhardy sort of comment I’ve ever recieved. (Stars for you, I suppose.)
So, there. I said what I wanted to say, but I’m curious for some other opinions on this topic.
Josh said,
March 3, 2006 at 1:16 pm
Great stuff here…I’m only jumping in because I can’t believe no one else has corrected recovering and jeff from way back at the beginning…you need to check your Constitution, guys. The rights guaranteed in the US Consitution are guaranteed to all citizens and aliens, whether legal or illegal, living in the US. Check it out.
benjamin said,
March 3, 2006 at 1:17 pm
It must really bother some people to realize that gramps bought the farm in Dubya-Dubya-two just so some loudmouth prick like me can say “fuck you, fuck the president, and fuck america”.
But they did - because (at least this is how they taught it in civics class) they died for the bill of rights, not for some flag.
Please don’t piss on grampa’s grave by shitting on the constitution. It’s not polite, and makes a person wonder just how serious you are about this whole “freedom” thing.
As for “most inflammatory, ignorant, and foolhardy sort of comment “, well, I’ve tried damn it , I’ve tried.
Brandon said,
March 3, 2006 at 1:45 pm
In some people’s eyes, Benjamin, I’m sure you’ve arrived (or are tied for first with me) as far as most inflammatory, ignorant, and foolhardy. But, in my eyes, my friend, you’re not even close.
And, you raise a good point.
Josh said,
March 3, 2006 at 1:50 pm
He does? Can you explain it to me? I’m trying to figure out if he’s accusing me of shitting on the Constitution, or someone else. Correctly interpreting and clarifying it doesn’t constitute (no pun intended) shitting on it, does it?
Brandon said,
March 3, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Josh,
While I’m sure Benjamin can speak to this too, and I hope he does, I’d say his comment wasn’t directed at you. In fact, I suspect that if you asked him he’d agree with what you said.
I’m only guessing here and I hope Benjamin weighs in, but I think Benjamin was saying that people died to protect the constitution, and that creating such a hostile environment for immigrants goes (as you said) to directly contradict and in a sense show disdain for all the men and women who’ve given their lives for this country.
I could be misunderstanding the dialogue, but that was my read on it. I don’t think you guys were disagreeing at all…and furthermore, I think I agree with both of you. Thus my comment about Benjamin raising a good point–which I think you did as well.
wildwest said,
March 3, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Yeah, Josh and Benjamin, you are saying the same thing, right?
Regarding your point, Benjamin, back when the Supreme Court flag-burning flap was going on, I used to hear people say, in effect, “Many soldiers died for your right to burn the flag. Therefore, out of respect for them, you shouldn’t have the right to burn the flag.” The logic behind that mystifies me this day. If these people are right, I am either too smart or too dumb for my own good.
benjamin said,
March 3, 2006 at 3:13 pm
I was replying to skeptic - and speaking to the whole idea that the greatest generation died for baseball and apple pie. Which they no doubt did, but they also died for hippies, athiests, communists, anarchists, the homeless, satan worshippers, abortionists, feminists, Emma Goldman, Ted Kennedy, Tom Delay, John Walker Lindh, Pat Tillman, even, sad to say, The Beloved Leader and George Dubya Bush.
They didn’t die for a flag, they died for an ideal (which, let’s be honest, has rarely been met) that all men are created equal before another in the eyes of the law, and that tyranny, even that of the majority, is a bad thing.
But I’m sure I’d be happier in China.
wildwest said,
March 3, 2006 at 3:40 pm
“But I’m sure I’d be happier in China. ”
We might all be moving there just to follow our jobs if the “patriotic” Americans keep exporting them.
Jack Baptist said,
March 3, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Maybe this war is almost Armageddon. If so, the four horsemen of the apocalypse should really scare you if you’re a heathen. But if you’re dead set on remaining a heathen I would think it would at least be good to be a “horse whisperer,” or at least to be really good with horses. That way if one of the horseman sees that his horse likes you he may go easy on you and show you a secret place to hide from the other three.
Dan Lewis said,
March 3, 2006 at 4:05 pm
Groan. Let me just sound the klaxon that this incredibly dangerous religion has infiltrated our society at all levels!! We have at minimum a million Muslims in America today, a quarter of which are black. Now that you’re sufficiently alarmed, I argue further that the marginal cost of allowing in a Muslim scholar on a teaching visa is too high to bear! A million is too many, so a million and one is way too many! We obviously need a more, well, final solution to this growing menace than simply capping the number of Muslims in our country.
We demand ideological purity! We demand safety from the violent boogeyman! We demand the triumph of our democracy!
[/racist wingnut rant]
Democracy for me, not thee. All ideologies are equal but some are more equal than others. Next you’ll tell me we started illegally wiretapping Americans for ideological reasons.
I don’t know why it is so difficult for people to understand how valuable, how precious dissent is. America needs dissent foremost because without it, government tends to kill people. See Iraq, Katrina.
Recoveringg Evangelical said,
March 3, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Brandon, Josh, and Skeptic -
I appreciate your comments and have enjoyed reading what you have to say. In response to Josh’s comment about the Constitutional Rights of non-citizens…you are kind of right…and so am I.
Here is an article that explains where I was coming from when I said that aliens do not have the same rights we do as citizens.
It gets to be a little messy and awkward when democracy requires transparency in government but security demands certain things be classified. I’m not saying that is what is happening here but it is a possiblity. If there is more to this story about this guy Brandon mentioned that is sensitive in nature, we may not hear about it for years.
Citizenship has its perks…
I’ve tried to post this a couple times but something is not quite working so I apologize if this comes up more than once.
A Skeptic said,
March 4, 2006 at 10:56 am
brandon,
do you ever ask yourself why no Palestinian Christians are strapping explosives onto themselves and blowing up innocent people? do you ever thoughfully wonder why a muslim could drive his car into a crowd of innocent people in the US because of the “treatment of Muslims around the world.” Have you watched the beheading videos? Have you seen the many signs stating no one is allowed to insult islam under penalty of death? How about the ones that say massacre, behead, slay, annihilate, kill those who insult islam. A real holocaust is on the way. Europe will pay. We are prepared to fight. Demolition is on it’s way. Democracy go to hell. Freedom go to hell. One of my favorites is the Islam Will Dominate sign with the black flag of islam flying over the capital. And where were these lovely men protesting — at ground zero in New York.
Have you heard about the French 23-year-old Jewish man who was tortured to death last week? He had burns and stab wounds over 80% of his body. His fingers had been cut off. He endured 20+ days of torture in the basement of an apartment building while the residents either ignored his screams or participated in his torture. Any surprise they were muslims?
Then you write this: “Your reading based on limited experience does not necesarily constitute expertise on your part.” Again you are showing your ignorance. Do you think I have the opinions I have because I’ve only read these “right wing propaganda” websites? Wrong again Brandon. I studied Islam in Egypt. I’ve read many books on islam. Sorry, but I don’t have “limited experience”.
The nice versus you were quoting were abrogagated by later versus. You see, allah changes him mind many times in the koran and the later versus are the ones that carry the final authority. Do you know how the koran is organized? It would be helpful if it was arranged chronologically or even topically, but no, it is arranged in order from the longest to the shortest surah. So you must know the sira and history and surahs to understand the koran chronologically.
And as far as you assessment that thereligionofpeace.com is right-wing propaganda because it doesn’t show both sides of the story is misguided. This site is not an apologetic site. It is a site that is documenting the violence of islam and asking the question “how can muslims call islam the religion of peace”. It’s a good question. Why are muslims so violent if islam is the religion of peace?
Brandon said,
March 4, 2006 at 11:12 am
I think I get where this is going.
I’m wrong, you’re right.
You’re brilliant and experienced, I’m stupid and ignorant.
I make no good points, yours are laced with irrefutable logic.
I think this conversation is over, Ms. akwardly annonymous person.
Brandon said,
March 4, 2006 at 11:15 am
Oh, and I think you meant: abrogated not abrogagated.
Shaggy Doodle said,
March 4, 2006 at 11:56 am
Brandon
quict acting like a four year old
Are you adult enough to say something along the lines of
“Hey - I really really like my ideology , I don’t agree with yours and I’m not going to, but I can appreciate and respect your experience and knowledge having physically lived in the middle east for a number of years. I am sure I could stand to learn more and I realise you do have more personal knowledge of Islam than I do. I still disagree, however.”
Listen , you and people like you ARE wrong. You ahve bought into the lie that America is the great evil in the world while you seem to miss the fact that America is the greatest force for good in the world, and also the greatest force for evil as well. It is that freedom you spoke about earlier - for the athiests, the hippies and the muslims. If someone wants to be a medrate and non violent and be Islamic in America, then no problem! But if they espouse the violent views of the Q’uran - then they ought to be questioned. We are under no compulsion to just accept anyone into our borders. For crying out loud get off of your damn self righteous “I’m morally superior to you because I’m open minded and tolerant” rant - Your tolerance for intolerance will not be tolerated!!!! Freakin submit to the fact that someone else might ACTUALLY have more personal and extensive knowledge about the subject than you huh? All of you - honestly - if America is the enemy and the bastion of all that is evil, then convert to Islam! Move to China or Cuba! enjoy the freedom of speech and tolerance experienced by those countries - but you won’t will you? YOu’ll sit at home in your $600 month aprtment drinking expresso and bash anything conservative sounding because it’s the hip, popular thing to do. You’re so smart you’re stupid.
Quit being a poulist sounding board for the far left ideology of “tolerance” and “diversity” and learn how to distinguish between fantasy and reality. Your personal bitnerness towards Christianity and your relatives for ramming it down your throat is obvious. It’s this personal bittnerness that causes you to rebel against common sense. You need to be healed of that anger. Learn to forgive your relatives and to reaslize that human beings are not the bearing by which we should judge God’s character. Poeple screww up and are imperfect - they cannot exemplify who God is perfectly and therefore thsoe who are imperfect sometimes make incredible mistakes that wound other people. Instead of understanding that the persons decisions are not God’s decisions will help you seperate the reality from the fantasy.
Take it for what it is, here is my big fat opinion, and delete it if you want, if it angers you - then there may be some truth to it.
And then next time you pick on Skeptic - try try try to remeber - Skeptoc has physically lived in the middle east - you ahve not. try to comprehend that.
I’m done.
Steve said,
March 4, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Skeptic writes:
Ummm…not to be adversarial, but there are Christian terrorist groups around the world. Do some reading on the Beirut Christian Militias that still exist in Lebanon today and killed many innocent people in the past couple decades.
Also, just this last week, mobs of Christians retaliated against Muslims in Zaire (I think?) for the protest marches responding to the Mohammed cartoons.
It is not just abroad where Christian extremists live. We have many groups in America that claim to be Christian but kill or attempt to terrify in an effort to advance their causes (various milita/separatist groups, radical anti-abortion advocates, KKK). If other religions were to judge us based on the videos that these groups produce, then Christianity would have as bad of a name as you are giving Islam.
Christians
jeff said,
March 4, 2006 at 8:03 pm
Josh, for the record, this instance is not about an alien living in the US. Its about granting entrance into the US… just for the record.
Andrew said,
March 5, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Regarding the evil things mentioned in the Koran: One can find probably just as many in the Bible, especially the Old Testament. Mohammed demanded a 6 year old girl for sex; Lot offered his young daughters to a mob so that they would rape the girls instead of his male guests (angels). True, Lot was not any sort of prophet, but he was the one man in all of Sodom that God considered just. God liked him enough that he (and his family) were the only ones spared from the destruction of Sodom, and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that God ever chastised Lot for his despicable act. And, of course, all through the Old Testament there are the stories of how the ancient Hebrew generals were commanded not to spare anyone in the towns they attacked, except sometimes the young women that they were allowed to keep for themselves. According to them, naturally, this was the will and judgement of God, but it sounds a lot like the justification used by Islamic terrorists who claim that they are doing the will of Allah.
benjamin said,
March 5, 2006 at 8:16 pm
I wanted stupidstupidtrollcreature.com, but it was already taken.
a badchristian blog » patriotism and loving the US said,
March 6, 2006 at 12:52 pm
[…] And, yes, as Benjamin suggests, it feels a little like you’re trying to take a big shit on the constitution. (Which, if it weren’t for the whole ‘destruction of public property’, and indecent exposure thing, I’d defend your right to do under the freedom of speech.) And, probably even worse, you’re choosing to shit on the lives that our daughters and sons and mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers laid down for the very rights you have to say what you want to say. […]