02.17.06
Posted in faith, life at 12:48 am by Brandon
Friends, I may not be incredibly smart. (And, that’s probably no shocker to many of you.) And, honestly, I’m a man of quite some loquaciousness. My wife is not. But, if there’s one thing I’ve learned in the about 5 or so years my wife and I have been together, when she takes the time to say something, you’d damn well better listen because it’s going to be good.
Thus, when my wife offered a comment with regard to my post “if they sang their theology,” I knew, even without reading it, that it would be worth the time of frequent visitors to this blog. Here’s what she had to say:
As the supreme lurker on this blog, I’ll step out once and stick up for Brandon. Is Brandon overgeneralizing about fundamentalism? Of course! Is this satire? Well, I probably won’t teach it to my freshmen, but yes, he is blowing something out of proportion in a humorous way to make a point. And this might be an overgeneralization, but knowing the context Brandon comes from, he’s not doing it with the mean spirit that Jacke might suggest.
You see, Brandon has to live with me, a woman who grew up fundamentalist, whose family still is, and whose college friends still are. All of these people come from several denominations, so it is not a denominational thing but rather a life attitude. And all of these people, and myself to some extent, even though I live with Brandon, tend to separate ourselves in some way from the world and culture that God created because we see some parts of it as evil. So the “withdrawn from the world” part of the song rang very true to me. We also can be very judgmental; maybe “may the rest of the world burn in hell” is a bit extreme (but it is satire…Jonathan Swift didn’t really want people to eat their babies), but I certainly looked down on other Christians who did things that I didn’t consider very Christian, and one of my college friends mentioned at Christmas that she now thinks less of Heath Ledger because he played a gay man. So I definitely know others, and myself, have condemned others to hell.
So as a former fundamentalist (and always will be, a little, I’m sure), this song rings true to me, in a very blown out of proportion way. And if Brandon is honest with himself, he would probably say that Jacke’s song rings true too (we certainly have some big ticket items in our house that aren’t helping the poor any). I think we have to all be okay with some finger-pointing in the Christian community, as long as it’s meant to help people see God and our world from different points of view. We all have a lot to learn from each other, and we can all help each other change to be more like who God wants us to be. I know that this has been the case for Brandon and I, in this marriage of two very different people. Heck, I even got a Calvinist to question predestination! But, in all seriousness, I hope this blog can also be a place where people from different backgrounds can point fingers a little bit as long as the goal is to help each other.
So feel free to point the finger back at Brandon (he often needs it, and it makes my job a bit easier), but understand he does speak from a context of having to live life with me!
It occurs to me that in that comment lies some serious truth. Truth as it relates to the discussions we’ve had over at Zalm’s blog about ethical dialogue, and truth as it relates to the discussions we’ve had at this place.
In a nutshell, what I’ve learned from my wife tonight might be summed up like this: When we dialogue (and sometimes that dialogue consists of frustration) there needs to be an ethic of what I’m going to term a “prophetic humility.” In our dialogue, we seek to tell the truth. Often in a written medium, that truth may consist of satire and hyperbole. Telling the truth, the truth that sometimes is hard to hear, especially, is prophetic. But, I suspect, the most appropriate companion of prophesy is humility.
Humility allows us to, amid our truth searching, approach life with the understanding that we’re all in need of a little prophesy from time to time. Yeah, even me…probably especially me–God knows, humility ain’t my forte.
The humble prophet knows herself (or himself) to be a hypocrite. Pointing out the hypocrisy of a world and life view probably shouldn’t be as jarring as it is in the Christian community. Telling me I’m a hypocrite is sort of like telling me I breathe air. And, sometimes, I think that’s what the Christian community, even the blogging Christian community is quite fond of doing. Perhaps, we all should be a little less fond of finding chinks in eachothers armour.
So, late tonight, as I write this, I’m going to be quite thankful. Thankful because I’ve been blessed with my very own real life prophetess, a prophetess who is ever so good at knowing the truth when she sees it, and a prophetess who is quite willing to tell the truth to her oft-bumbling-idiot of a husband.
Tags: Conversation Peace, Prophetic Humility, Confession
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Posted in faith, life at 12:48 am by Brandon
Friends, I may not be incredibly smart. (And, that’s probably no shocker to many of you.) And, honestly, I’m a man of quite some loquaciousness. My wife is not. But, if there’s one thing I’ve learned in the about 5 or so years my wife and I have been together, when she takes the time to say something, you’d damn well better listen because it’s going to be good.
Thus, when my wife offered a comment with regard to my post “if they sang their theology,” I knew, even without reading it, that it would be worth the time of frequent visitors to this blog. Here’s what she had to say:
As the supreme lurker on this blog, I’ll step out once and stick up for Brandon. Is Brandon overgeneralizing about fundamentalism? Of course! Is this satire? Well, I probably won’t teach it to my freshmen, but yes, he is blowing something out of proportion in a humorous way to make a point. And this might be an overgeneralization, but knowing the context Brandon comes from, he’s not doing it with the mean spirit that Jacke might suggest.
You see, Brandon has to live with me, a woman who grew up fundamentalist, whose family still is, and whose college friends still are. All of these people come from several denominations, so it is not a denominational thing but rather a life attitude. And all of these people, and myself to some extent, even though I live with Brandon, tend to separate ourselves in some way from the world and culture that God created because we see some parts of it as evil. So the “withdrawn from the world” part of the song rang very true to me. We also can be very judgmental; maybe “may the rest of the world burn in hell” is a bit extreme (but it is satire…Jonathan Swift didn’t really want people to eat their babies), but I certainly looked down on other Christians who did things that I didn’t consider very Christian, and one of my college friends mentioned at Christmas that she now thinks less of Heath Ledger because he played a gay man. So I definitely know others, and myself, have condemned others to hell.
So as a former fundamentalist (and always will be, a little, I’m sure), this song rings true to me, in a very blown out of proportion way. And if Brandon is honest with himself, he would probably say that Jacke’s song rings true too (we certainly have some big ticket items in our house that aren’t helping the poor any). I think we have to all be okay with some finger-pointing in the Christian community, as long as it’s meant to help people see God and our world from different points of view. We all have a lot to learn from each other, and we can all help each other change to be more like who God wants us to be. I know that this has been the case for Brandon and I, in this marriage of two very different people. Heck, I even got a Calvinist to question predestination! But, in all seriousness, I hope this blog can also be a place where people from different backgrounds can point fingers a little bit as long as the goal is to help each other.
So feel free to point the finger back at Brandon (he often needs it, and it makes my job a bit easier), but understand he does speak from a context of having to live life with me!
It occurs to me that in that comment lies some serious truth. Truth as it relates to the discussions we’ve had over at Zalm’s blog about ethical dialogue, and truth as it relates to the discussions we’ve had at this place.
In a nutshell, what I’ve learned from my wife tonight might be summed up like this: When we dialogue (and sometimes that dialogue consists of frustration) there needs to be an ethic of what I’m going to term a “prophetic humility.” In our dialogue, we seek to tell the truth. Often in a written medium, that truth may consist of satire and hyperbole. Telling the truth, the truth that sometimes is hard to hear, especially, is prophetic. But, I suspect, the most appropriate companion of prophesy is humility.
Humility allows us to, amid our truth searching, approach life with the understanding that we’re all in need of a little prophesy from time to time. Yeah, even me…probably especially me–God knows, humility ain’t my forte.
The humble prophet knows herself (or himself) to be a hypocrite. Pointing out the hypocrisy of a world and life view probably shouldn’t be as jarring as it is in the Christian community. Telling me I’m a hypocrite is sort of like telling me I breathe air. And, sometimes, I think that’s what the Christian community, even the blogging Christian community is quite fond of doing. Perhaps, we all should be a little less fond of finding chinks in eachothers armour.
So, late tonight, as I write this, I’m going to be quite thankful. Thankful because I’ve been blessed with my very own real life prophetess, a prophetess who is ever so good at knowing the truth when she sees it, and a prophetess who is quite willing to tell the truth to her oft-bumbling-idiot of a husband.
Tags: Conversation Peace, Prophetic Humility, Confession
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Trackback URL »
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Donna said,
February 17, 2006 at 7:32 am
A wonderful and wise wife you have…
Zeke said,
February 17, 2006 at 8:46 am
A virtuous woman, who can find?
I certainly did, sounds like you did too. Welcome to the “married up” club, bro.
the cleric said,
February 17, 2006 at 6:30 pm
I think I’d much prefer “prophetic absurdity.”
Jacke said,
February 19, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Good grief! You people do tend to take things awfully seriously, don’t you? I don’t think I was nearly as offended by Brandon’s blog entry as the lot of you who commented on my comments seemed to be with my comments.
Several commenters (including Brandon) seemed to suggest that I couldn’t recognize satire, if not then why was my original response a return satirical lyric? One or two suggested I don’t have a sense of humor, I can assure you that isn’t the case and I do believe that I have even proven it isn’t on this blog in the past. Brandon is absolutely and resoundingly correct that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US IS A HYPOCRITE about something, and:
he should definitely keep listening to his wife.
Recovering said,
February 19, 2006 at 10:48 pm
I feel similarly about my wife. I’m glad I got married young. It helped me avoid years of unchecked idiocy..
Brandon said,
February 20, 2006 at 5:07 pm
My dear Jacke,
You wrote:
I thought for a good day or so about how best to respond to this.
I’m not sure, Jacke, how exactly to take you, then. If you mean, do I take seriously the things which I write about–then yes, I do take things awfully seriously…frankly, I think they’re awfully serious. If you don’t agree that they’re serious, then I’d thank you to keep your trap shut, for if you simply are wagging your jowls only to incite adrenaline, then you’re not much helping things around here.
However, I doubt this to be the case. I don’t think you’re responding because you simply want a fight, I think you’re responding because you care about the issues I’m raising.
It seems a bit odd to me that I, and others, have this pesky habit of “misunderstanding” your intentions and reading into your dialogue angst which isn’t there. One of two things is true here, either myself and others consistently misread you time and again, or you’re not clearly representing what you’re thinking. (I’ll put aside, for a moment, the more incindiary possibility that you’re intentionally trying to get away with running off at the mouth by simply doing so and then claiming that we “misread” your intentions.)
Why, if you did indeed recognize my post as satire, did you feel the need to accuse me of making sweeping generalizations about all of fundagelicalism? Why would you make the following statement if you knew I wasn’t trying to encapsulate all of fundagelicalism with one fell post:
I ask you this: When have I ever claimed to want to have an open line of communication with fundagelicals by the writing of such pieces? True, I’ve said to you before (and I’ll say it again) you’re welcome to stick around here. However, you’re not my primary audience.
I don’t want this blog to appeal to the masses. I want to write from my heart about my REAL desires, hopes, fears, and critiques. If people read it, so be it, if not, I’m okay with that too. I’ll be damned if I’m going to curtail my voice as a writer because some people won’t like what I have to say.
Perhaps, Jacke, you’ve been caught, recently, in the crossfire of something not entirely your fault. You see, lately I’ve been kind of convicted that I’m trying to write to make other people happy. On this blog, it’s been my experience that I’m not very good at writing things people like when I’m trying to write things people like. When I write what’s in my heart, that’s when I write good shit. So, maybe, you’ve been caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. If so, I’m sorry.
Finally, you say you’re curious as to why so many people were so offended by YOUR words while MINE hardly caused any public outcry.
Words are not just words, Jacke. Words work with context, the voice of the writer, and the culture to take up their meaning. If you wanted to write a satirical rendition of “Shine Jesus Shine” over at your own blog, that would’ve been your perogative. Writing it here, in my comment section, took on a whole different tenor. Probably, the reason people responded so negatively to you was that your writing of your version here seemed really out of place. It seemed hurtful, not playful like you claim that it was intended.
That feeling was only further confirmed by your post where you offer this vignette:
I’m just trying to help you out with what caused such a response from myself and others around here. You seemed surprised with the response you got, so I thought I’d offer a little insight into what may have been the cause.
Jacke said,
February 20, 2006 at 9:36 pm
Yes, Brandon, I understand that you aren’t comfortable with feeling you have to hold back on what you’d like to say in an effort to please others, I feel the same way. When we do exercise our freedom to say whatever we want to say, however, we must be willing to discuss those things with others, if we don’t like the ensuing discussion then maybe we should consider closing our comment sections…know what I mean? Or, in the least, not be afraid to tell someone in particular their comments are no longer welcome. It’s an individual choice.
Why would I go to my own blog to write a return lyric to your lyric? I had no interest in writing it at all except in reply to you. That sort of satire can go two ways. I most likely wouldn’t have “run off at the mouth” further if not for your NEEDLING comment in reply to my tit for tat lyric, if not for your DECLARATION that you had struck a nerve. That was provocative, Brandon, and I do think that it was intentionally provocative. I think you like to fight with me and you know that I am always up for the challenge. It’s the spice of life, isn’t it? wink, wink.
Now, I was being honest about my feelings, I am a stickler for being honest about how I feel about certain issues, I learned a long time ago that being honest was the only way I can keep my story “straight.” I will continue to be honest about how I feel about certain issues whether you like it or not. I don’t write to please you, either.
In case you wonder, because we often get crosswise, I would like to re-iterate that I have great respect for you as someone who will speak your mind and stand by what you say. I would like that respect returned but I can’t control your reaction to me doing my best to live by the very guidelines that you allow yourself the privilege of living by.
Perhaps I went to far in my honesty by mentioning my friend I was considering referring to your blog. I can see now that that might have been unnecessarily hurtful. At the time it wasn’t intended as such. Darn it, I keep doing human things even though I am supposed to be one of those perfect “Conservative” Christians who lives to such a higher standard than others. Please accept my apology if I hurt you, sometimes honesty is best kept to oneself, isn’t it? Sometimes I have a little trouble with the lines.
If you would prefer that I not comment on your blog all you have to do is say the word, I will comply with your wishes out of that respect which I DO have for you.
Why do you think I continue to read your blog, Brandon? Does it ever occur to you that I like you and like the fact that you make me think? Does it ever occur to you that I enjoy reading about your opinions on things and that I learn something from you? That perhaps I like the give and take of the other commenters who frequent here? Why do you think I visit your blog?
One more thing, your constant concern with explaining to me why people have this or that reaction to my comments? I really couldn’t give less of a rat’s patootie what your opinion is regarding why I might or might not “offend” people. You want to give yourself permission to speak your mind without the worry of pleasing people, so do I. I’m not really sure why I appear to bother you so much, but I don’t have to have the answer to that question from your viewpoint and I cannot help but wonder, as I have mentioned before, over at Zalm’s blog, how you would feel if I constantly explained to you the reasons why your social skills are lacking? Would you welcome or invite me to do so? Would it matter to you? Why do I get the impression that you want the freedom to say whatever you want to say without worrying about whether you please people or not but you feel that I must be reprimanded for everything I say that doesn’t please people? Isn’t this about our opinions, don’t we all have some? Like I said, if you don’t want to hear my opinions, say the word, but I am not your child who needs you to explain why my interpersonal skills don’t meet your personal approval and I think it immensely arrogant of you to think that I do.
Do me a favor before you get really angry about my reply and think about it first. I said nothing in this comment that was an effort to get a rise out of you. I am giving you my thoughts in REPLY to what you said. I am being honest and truthful about how I feel about it. If it makes you angry, consider why it makes you angry instead of blaming me. I mean, really, what am I to you, Brandon? Why does what I say matter so much to you? I don’t view myself as worthy of you giving me so much attention. I’m just a stupid hillbilly girl living in the Ozarks, why do you take me so seriously?
I must say I don’t like the options you’ve left me with that either everyone on this blog misreads me or I am inarticulate. I can say I have been told that I am very articulate by many people in the past so I would tend to think the those people who frequent your blog, because of bias and unintentionally, do misunderstand me, but in claiming that I feel a very uncomfortable, as if saying “you are all wrong and I’m right.” I am, whether you recognize it or not, more humble than that and usually I would agree that when a clear majority of people view things one way and I view things another way that I should consider that… but, considering that, in this case, I don’t believe that I am inarticulate, so…that leaves me in the uncomfortable position of claiming that you all, due to your bias, and I am sure quite unintentionally, do misread me a great deal of the time.
I would like us to be able to get past this nit picking about my communication style someday, Brandon. It gets very tedious. Thanks.
wildwest said,
February 21, 2006 at 12:29 pm
I dunno, Jacke.
You’re the one who recommended Brandon’s site to me, and I don’t think you need have any regrets. You and Brandon both have a certain spunk that Bob lacks. (I think poor Bob must be getting lonely.)
Jacke said,
February 21, 2006 at 12:33 pm
Like I said, I like Brandon. There’s just no accounting for taste, is there?
So, yew thank I’m spunky? Lol. I can live with that.
Steve J said,
February 22, 2006 at 4:35 am
Jacke,
As a reader of Brandon’s blog I would like to try to expand on a point from an outside perspective.
Brandon may have been guilty of casting the first stone but as a piece of satire I did find it amusing in places which enabled me to skip over some parts which weren’t as well thought through. Without trying to pick on you I can’t say the same for your riposte.
Brandon often says things I don’t agree with but only on occasion will he say something I disagree with strongly enough to pull him up on it. Or in other words I don’t think the original piece justified the response you gave (only an opinion for what it’s worth).
I have noticed Brandon will say something which you find contention with and that’s fine but instead of stating what it is that has stirred you and proposing another line of thought you can often hit back with a harsh tone, which ultimately leads to handbags at dawn then on to all out war.
It does appear that you seem to draw Brandon into these fights and then wonder how they started.
Hopefully you won’t be too offended by these words.
Steve J
Jacke said,
February 22, 2006 at 4:24 pm
My apologies to anyone I might have offended over the course of my visiting Brandon’s blog.
Guess I should have just kept with my own kind.
I recommended Brandon’s blog to my friend.
Steve J said,
February 23, 2006 at 4:22 am
Jacke,
I certainly haven’t been offended by your comments, I offered mine as an observation and they were not meant to cause offence. I am sorry if that was not the outcome.
One of the things that make this blog worth reading is that Christians can be honest here without feeling we all have to sing from the same hymn book. which is also why your point of view is so welcome.
It can’t be very nice for you to comment here and wonder why people seem to get shirty back, but I was trying to provide some insight into why that might be the case. I’ve stated my opinion before in that I do hope you stick around and I’d like to repeat that here.
Also after reading a post on your Blog (I would have replied there but I don’t have my own Blog so no blogger profile) I do not think you are a smug Jackass. I was just trying to point out that in your responses you can reply out of hurt feelings rather than just a difference of opinion.
Again this is my opinion…not a fact.
I would be interested in reading the post you deleted mind but maybe its for the best that I don’t. As for keeping with your own kind. That doesn’t sound healthy for anyone.
With love
Steve J
wildwest said,
February 23, 2006 at 8:17 am
Oh, Jacke, you can’t stay away. You can’t get enough of us progressives!
Bob said,
February 27, 2006 at 12:59 am
Wildwest - you’ve cut me to the quick! Lacking spunk? Ouch!
(Just kidding — I’ve never in my wildest dreams thought of myself as spunky.)
Brandon - I’m the infamous “Bob” that Jacke quoted to you over a month ago here (and twisted my meaning quite a bit, I might add). I check in on your blog regularly, but didn’t notice that my old friends Wildwest and Jacke had made the trip over here until tonight. I’m afraid I pushed them away by taking my blog in a very wonky direction lately, which I’m enjoying even if no one else is.
Which brings me to a couple conclusions I came to in the midst of some heated blog debates last year. I’m not getting paid to blog, so I write what I enjoy writing. Or not, if I don’t feel like blogging at the moment. It’s great to have the affirmation of lots of comments and the knowledge that you’ve sparked a raging debate, but ultimately blogging needs to be, for me, pretty self-centered. At times I started feeling like I had to “feed the beast” and get another interesting post out to keep everyone entertained. Like you, the quality of my blogging went down when I started thinking that way.
I also learned that I had to feel free to disengage from discussions in comments. At first I felt guilty if I wasn’t being the good host, responding to all the comments, trying to mediate disputes, etc. But eventually I realized that I’m providing a free space for people to discuss and debate, and that’s enough. So I began viewing the debates on my blog as I would on any other blog — if I wasn’t enjoying it, I’d disengage and disappear.
Jacke - I say this with Christian love in my heart, but you display a lot of the behaviors of a troll. I’m not saying that you do this deliberately or consciously, but the effect is the same. You like to attack others aggressively, but in such a way that you can represent yourself as the victim. When they respond aggressively in return, you then feign innocence and make nice. And eventually start the cycle over. I wonder what satisfaction you get out of repeating this pattern.
So Brandon, keep up the great blogging and listen to your wife. And just know that ever since I first found your blog, I’ve been a Christian aspiring to be bad!
Brandon said,
February 27, 2006 at 1:24 am
Thanks for the encouragement, Bob. I appreciate it.