12.13.05
Posted in faith at 7:00 am by
I heard of this recently. (You may need to fill out a form to read this). Here’s the text:
Diane VanderLaan loves going to Mars Hill Bible Church. But come Christmas morning, she would rather be home.
That is where she will be Sunday, Dec. 25, along with about 10,000 other Mars Hill worshippers. The Grandville megachurch is canceling services that day so members can celebrate Christ’s birth with their families.
The move may outrage church purists, but it suits VanderLaan fine.
“We honor God in our own way with our own family,” said VanderLaan, a mother of two. “We are not traditional churchgoers.”
West Michigan’s largest church is among several megachurches closing their doors on Christmas, including Willow Creek Community Church near Chicago and Southland Christian Church near Lexington, Ky.
Mars Hill instead will hold special services the Wednesday and Thursday before Christmas. Church officials say no one has objected so far.
“We feel that Christmas is definitely a time that should be spent with family,” Mars Hill spokesman Kris McNeil said.
The church also canceled Sunday services last year, even though Christmas fell on a Saturday.
But some worry churches are putting family celebrations above celebrating Jesus.
“There is a risk that we will lose one more of our Christian rituals, one that’s at the heart of our faith,” said Robert Johnston, professor of theology and culture at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif.
He need not worry about a trend here. Many West Michigan churches, such as Holland’s Christ Memorial, Wyoming’s Resurrection Life and Grand Rapids’ Calvary Church will hold their usual Sunday morning services.
Others are trimming back service times and offering more family-friendly worship.
Instead of its usual two services, Grand Rapids First Assembly of God will hold one and feature puppets, caroling and maybe a drama featuring the innkeeper’s wife.
“It’s an opportunity for people to have a fresh beginning with Christ and to invite the Christmas story into their heart,” the Rev. Dawn Jones said.
Kentwood Community Church also will cut back from two services to one but will hold three Christmas Eve services. Officials recalled attendance fell during two services when Christmas fell on a Sunday in 1994.
“It’s hard as a family when you only get one day once in awhile” to be together, church secretary Shareen Bradley said. The Rev. Sam Moffett is happy he will have time with his wife and two children on Christmas. His church, Bethel Pentecostal of Grand Rapids, moved its usual 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. services to noon.
“If we didn’t get the morning, we wouldn’t have much of a Christmas together,” said Moffett, a youth minister.
Sorry, kids, but you’re getting a taste of cynicism here, I just can’t help it.
Churches cancelling services for Christmas?!? What the hell?
Though, on second thought maybe this isn’t such a bad idea. And, while they’re at it, I suppose we could use a couple of years without the hassle of having to show up at the ass crack of dawn for those damn Ressurection Sunday services as well.
I love the rationale here, too. You want to spend time with your family so your cancel Church?!? I suppose that just tips us off a bit as to the value of the ‘Church Family’ for the churches in question. Perhaps, if we refered to it as just the “Holiday Season” churches wouldn’t feel the pressing need to drop everything and cancel meeting.
My thing is this, Churches meet to worship corporately, to fellowship, and to commune with the most high God. That’s what they do, it’s part of the way they do discipleship. The idea that they should just stop doing what Churches are supposed to do in order to celebrate the birth of Jesus, well, that seems a shade nucking futs to this ole’ codger.
Tags: Faith, Stupid Things Christians Do.
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Posted in faith at 7:00 am by
I heard of this recently. (You may need to fill out a form to read this). Here’s the text:
Diane VanderLaan loves going to Mars Hill Bible Church. But come Christmas morning, she would rather be home.
That is where she will be Sunday, Dec. 25, along with about 10,000 other Mars Hill worshippers. The Grandville megachurch is canceling services that day so members can celebrate Christ’s birth with their families.
The move may outrage church purists, but it suits VanderLaan fine.
“We honor God in our own way with our own family,” said VanderLaan, a mother of two. “We are not traditional churchgoers.”
West Michigan’s largest church is among several megachurches closing their doors on Christmas, including Willow Creek Community Church near Chicago and Southland Christian Church near Lexington, Ky.
Mars Hill instead will hold special services the Wednesday and Thursday before Christmas. Church officials say no one has objected so far.
“We feel that Christmas is definitely a time that should be spent with family,” Mars Hill spokesman Kris McNeil said.
The church also canceled Sunday services last year, even though Christmas fell on a Saturday.
But some worry churches are putting family celebrations above celebrating Jesus.
“There is a risk that we will lose one more of our Christian rituals, one that’s at the heart of our faith,” said Robert Johnston, professor of theology and culture at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif.
He need not worry about a trend here. Many West Michigan churches, such as Holland’s Christ Memorial, Wyoming’s Resurrection Life and Grand Rapids’ Calvary Church will hold their usual Sunday morning services.
Others are trimming back service times and offering more family-friendly worship.
Instead of its usual two services, Grand Rapids First Assembly of God will hold one and feature puppets, caroling and maybe a drama featuring the innkeeper’s wife.
“It’s an opportunity for people to have a fresh beginning with Christ and to invite the Christmas story into their heart,” the Rev. Dawn Jones said.
Kentwood Community Church also will cut back from two services to one but will hold three Christmas Eve services. Officials recalled attendance fell during two services when Christmas fell on a Sunday in 1994.
“It’s hard as a family when you only get one day once in awhile” to be together, church secretary Shareen Bradley said. The Rev. Sam Moffett is happy he will have time with his wife and two children on Christmas. His church, Bethel Pentecostal of Grand Rapids, moved its usual 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. services to noon.
“If we didn’t get the morning, we wouldn’t have much of a Christmas together,” said Moffett, a youth minister.
Sorry, kids, but you’re getting a taste of cynicism here, I just can’t help it.
Churches cancelling services for Christmas?!? What the hell?
Though, on second thought maybe this isn’t such a bad idea. And, while they’re at it, I suppose we could use a couple of years without the hassle of having to show up at the ass crack of dawn for those damn Ressurection Sunday services as well.
I love the rationale here, too. You want to spend time with your family so your cancel Church?!? I suppose that just tips us off a bit as to the value of the ‘Church Family’ for the churches in question. Perhaps, if we refered to it as just the “Holiday Season” churches wouldn’t feel the pressing need to drop everything and cancel meeting.
My thing is this, Churches meet to worship corporately, to fellowship, and to commune with the most high God. That’s what they do, it’s part of the way they do discipleship. The idea that they should just stop doing what Churches are supposed to do in order to celebrate the birth of Jesus, well, that seems a shade nucking futs to this ole’ codger.
Tags: Faith, Stupid Things Christians Do.
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Scott said,
December 13, 2005 at 10:20 am
My first inclination is to be a little miffed over this as well. However, I have a 6 year old, and quite honestly, doing business as usual on a Sunday Christmas would mess up the whole experience. On that morning, we usually do our own little church service by reading the birth story from Luke. This inevitably leads to questions and discussion. We sit around and open presents, play, and thank God for all that we have.
One of the things that bothered me the most about becoming a Christian is the lack of enthusiasm associated with the important parts of our faith. When I was a “non-churched” little boy, my family would go all out for Easter. It was truly a special day. We had people over, we made a big meal, and everyone celebrated. And do you know what, most of them didn’t even know what they were celebrating. Now, we go to church, say all the right things, talk about the sacrifice for sin and then go out for Chinese food as usual, nothing special.
No, I’m not offended by changing the program for Christmas. In fact, I think it will make people break their routine and really investigate their faith. We get so lost in the day to day church activities that a change may lead to an authentic understanding of the meaning of the day.
jeff said,
December 13, 2005 at 11:22 am
Hey!! I want to spend time with my family EVERY Sunday…
hmmmmm….
rachel said,
December 13, 2005 at 11:47 am
hey brandon… i’m with ya. i wrote a few random thoughts about it on my blog a few days ago…
did you see witvliet (calvin prof) quoted in the ny times front page article? he makes an extremely good point about people who are alone/single/away from families… christmas at church was very important to me when i was living away from everyone in switzerland. i hope that some of the people in those churches that might be in that boat are able to go and find another church family to worship with on christmas…
Steve C said,
December 13, 2005 at 12:53 pm
Brandon, you know that I currently do not attend church. However, I have a friend that considers herself even less of a churchgoer than I because she only goes to church twice a year…. Christmas and Easter. These two days are important to her and is a way for her to make a spiritual connection in her life in a public way. This doesn’t mean she doesn’t feel connected in other ways to God, but she really enjoys going to church at this time of year.
For some reason, that concept of just going to church on Christmas and Easter currently makes sense to me in some strange way. I used to look down on people who only went to church on the “special days” but for some it is a vital part of their spiritual journey… no matter what you or I may think of them.
Churches like Mars Hill are missing opportunities for these people to connect. There are other churches that will be open but imagine the shock some people will find when they show up and there is noone there.
ninjanun said,
December 13, 2005 at 1:03 pm
This really jumped out at me:
“It’s hard as a family when you only get one day once in awhile” to be together, church secretary Shareen Bradley said.
So…working for a church or “doing ministry” allows individuals less time to spend with their families than the average job? What kind of message does that send about how much Christians value the traditional family all the other days of the year?
It reminds me of what James Dobson said to someone seeking to work at FOTF b/c they thought it would be a good job that allowed them to, you know, spend more time with their family in the process. James Dobson let them know in no uncertain terms that if you worked at FOTF, you would actually see a lot less of your family–FOTF was about focusing on everyone else’s family!
Yes, Christmas in general allows us to spend time with family. But the whole point of Christmas is celebrating the birth of Christ. As His believers. As His family, not just within our own individual nuclear families.
Just Pete said,
December 13, 2005 at 2:15 pm
Yeah, I had a few questions on this topic, as well:
http://www.boredagainchristian.com/blahg
Benjamin said,
December 13, 2005 at 3:23 pm
Maybe Mr. Dobson should rename his group “Fetish On The Family” - He wouldn’t have to change any of the stationary that just used the acronym.
UncleMidriff said,
December 13, 2005 at 3:48 pm
I’m kind of surprised at the reactions to this news here. Granted, I’m not a big part of the bad christian community, but through the last couple of months of lurking, I thought I knew at least one thing about this place pretty well; a lot of you don’t really like attending church all that much. Now it seems that you’re getting all up in arms because, on this particular day of the year, more people are agreeing with you. I’m sure I’m just misunderstanding something, but that just seems a little incongruent to me.
In the same way that I don’t see anything super magical about normal chruch services that necessitates my attending them every other Sunday of the year, I don’t see anything super magical that necessitates my attending Christmas services on a Christmas Sunday. We can and should celebrate Jesus every single day of the year, in church or not. Why the hell does it matter if we add December 25th to the list of not-in-church-but-celebrating-Jesus-anyway days?
I apologize if I sound rude or angry or anything like that, as that is not my intention. I’m just mighty confused.
ninjanun said,
December 13, 2005 at 7:09 pm
I thought the following article had some great insights on the subject:
http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/how-the-megachurch-stole-christmas-day-worship
It might answer some of the questions you brought up, UncleMidriff (funny name, btw).
We, as the body of Christ, are the church. It doesn’t matter where we worship, but it does matter that we DO worship.
Tim Sean said,
December 13, 2005 at 8:20 pm
I think this has everything to do with the way these folks “worship.” It is a concert-theater-show mode and it takes a cajillion people to put on the show, so let’s give them have a rest on Chritmas Sunday. Shut down the turbo-gym for the kiddos, turn off the giant playstation screens, give your thirty-member tech team a day off, the kick-ass band, the ushers who drive the disno-golf-carts in the parking lot, etc.
Turns out at my pitiful 250 member church we can get along just fine with Ron playing organ, Carol on the piano, Bobby giving us a sermon and racks full o’hymnals. Simple.
The whole mega thing exhausts me. I say, if you gotta work that hard to be that shallow then maybe you should just close up shop all-together. Ick.
Jacke said,
December 13, 2005 at 11:28 pm
I am planning on attending an abbreviated service on Christmas. I’ll let you know how many attend, or rather whether the attendence is as much as usual. I am thinking that attendence will be lower than usual because people will be traveling and spending time with family, anyway. I have family coming in from out of town, not all of them are Christians, nor do they all observe services in the same denomination so it WILL take me away from family but I look forward to it enriching my Christmas. Our church is also having a special Christmas eve service. This is my first Christmas in a new church, that makes it almost bitter sweet after having been a member of my previous church for 8 years. I still miss a lot of members of my old church, of course I CAN call them any old time.
Oh, and Brandon, I wish I knew you well enough to tell you how much you suck. Unfortunately, I have managed to refrain from judging you too harshly just yet.
and smooches.
juanito said,
December 14, 2005 at 1:14 am
I attend MHBC. Not having a church service on Christmas doesn’t bother me until i think that most people will probably use the time to “Celebrate Christmas” by opening presents. I hate it when people say “Celebrate Christmas” when opening presents bears only a marginal resemblance to what we should really celebrate.
So i guess many families will be spending that Sunday at the true altar of our culture’s official religion - consumerism / materialism. Not us. My little family opens presents a couple days before, to keep the materialistic frenzy further from what’s truly important.
Messy Christian said,
December 14, 2005 at 6:50 am
I truly do not understand what the fuss is all about. I just find it really ironic that people are so hung up about a day that is not even really Jesus’ real birthday and was once a pagan holiday to boot.
Is it important to attend church on this day compared to any other day? I’m like the lady in the article, I find spending time with my family very precious. Besides, I think about the church workers missing out on a peaceful day spending time with their families so that they can feed us pew warmers with a pleasing service complete with nativity play. It doesn’t sit right with me somehow.
My reflections are here:
http://www.messychristian.com/archives/2005/12/church_not_havi.htm
Messy Christian said,
December 14, 2005 at 7:00 am
Church not having service because it’s Christmas
Irene…
Stuck in the office thanks to massive jam. Well, I’m typing this and cringing at the same time because I’m waiting for that stab of pain that will come if I grimace/laugh/smile/shrug, But I couldn’t ignore this article.
dorsey said,
December 14, 2005 at 8:48 am
I’m a little surprised at my initial negative knee-jerk response. The church I (almost) attend will have services on Christmas day. But they also have a Christmas eve service every year. I’ll likely attend on the 24th, but it seems a little silly, given what we believe about the communal, day in-day out nature of the fellowship of believers to get all worked up about a single church service.
Clearly, we all still have a lot of deconstructing left to accomplish.
WTFWJD? (ninjanun rocks)
Jacke said,
December 14, 2005 at 9:41 am
The “Pastor” (singular, Ninjanun
)
at our church brought up a good point. Many people who are “un-churched” but identify as Christians attend church only a couple of times a year, at Easter and at Christmas, whether we agree with their actions or not, those are the days that they gather together with other Christians. Now, some, to coin a term of a good friend, “Churchians” hold these people in ire but none of us know the motivations of their hearts to go to church on only those days. We often assume that they are not as *spiritual* as we are because they don’t attend church regularly. I think this is an assumption that we probably should not make and closing the church doors on a Christmas Sunday keeps them from practising a tradition that might be of great value to them spiritually. I just think we need to be careful about closing church doors on days when they are always open and especially on Christmas day, when the celebration of Christ’s birth is generally even more festive than at any other time, but then, that is another debatable point.
ninjanun said,
December 14, 2005 at 1:23 pm
I agree, Jacke. The article I mentioned above makes that same point.
In fact, the articles makes SEVERAL good points, including addressing the issue Messy Christian brought up about how Dec. 25th is not *really* Jesus’ birthday, and used to, in fact, be strictly a pagan article. I highly recommend everyone read it. It’s got some good insights; stuff I hadn’t thought of before.
I, too, used to be one of those who looked down on the people who only attended a church service twice a year (Christmas and Easter), and would have opted for closing the church on Xmas (”let’s see how all those luke-warm ‘Christians’ deal with THAT!”) but that’s not very Christ-like, eh? If that’s when a greater majority of people want to come to a church service and actually make an effort to remember the *real* reason for the season, I say, “let’s make sure someone is there to show them the way.”
Of course, the article also brings up the point that the Megas closing might not be a bad thing, seeing as how many of them have shallow versions of Christianity presented on a weekly basis as it is.
I think I’m gonna side with the Catholics (and other high-church traditions) on this one: Christmas is a time for worshiping our Savior in a corporate setting, no matter *what* day it falls on.
That is, of course, if you go by the Christian calendar at all. And since the secular side of America (and other countries, I suppose) go by it in terms of celebrating it in their own fashion (candy and presents and non-religious icons, oh my!) it seems weird to me for some churches to be closing up shop and letting the secular culture be the only voice determining how the day should be remembered and celebrated.
But as EddieO would say, What do I know?
Ryan said,
December 14, 2005 at 1:36 pm
I actually never go to church on Christmas day. I always go on Christmas Eve and I think most people who say they go to church on Christmas actually mean that they go on Christmas Eve.
My church is not meeting on Christmas this year because we never have met that day. The only problem is that this year Christmas is on a Sunday and we always meet on Sundays. When other Holidays such as 4th of July and the Superbowl fall on Sundays, then I usually miss church and wish that my church would re-think the meeting times on those days.
Kevin said,
December 14, 2005 at 2:49 pm
Our church is meeting on Christmas Eve Eve, Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. And it’s sort of a mega church. And it’s in Chicagoland. Take that Willow Creek!
Josh said,
December 14, 2005 at 4:30 pm
I have to agree with everyone who was surprised at your reaction. I miss church when my kid has a fever, I miss church when it’s been a busy weekend and I haven’t spent enough time with my wife, I miss church when there’s too much snow on the road. Going to church isn’t what makes me a Christian, or even a better Christian. It’s part of what I do because I’m a Christian, but it’s far from the only or the most imporant thing. I would have thought you would be among the first to rail against the people who railed against this decision. But this is probably the most legalistic thing I’ll ever read from you, so I don’t mind.
QuasiMegachurcher said,
December 14, 2005 at 4:55 pm
This is amazing….Tim Sean, get to know the hearts of some of the people at these churches you are so quick to get exhausted by and maybe, just maybe, you’ll learn something about who they are. And…if you’re so exhausted by it, stop getting so stressed and tired by something you’re not even part of. As for these churches “closing their doors” on Christmas….let’s take a theology lesson and we’ll learn that the church is NOT the building where people gather to worship, but rather the PEOPLE who gather in the name of the one they serve. Perhaps we in this culture should move away from our fascination with the church being identified by our “gatherings” and become more fascinated with being the church in the communities we reside! I will be participating in 5 services in the days leading up to Christmas, offering people a chance to connect with the Lifegiver, Jesus! And on Christmas, I will BE the church to my family and everyone else I come in contact with, especially the disenfranchised and marginal! Thanks, and Merry Christmas!
dufflehead said,
December 14, 2005 at 9:16 pm
“Perhaps we in this culture should move away from our fascination with the church being identified by our “gatherings” and become more fascinated with being the church in the communities we reside! I will be participating in 5 services in the days leading up to Christmas. . .”
so are you bragging, or pointing out why you should close your temple’s doors on the one day that many people go to a congregational gathering at a temple? or making the point that you do so much that inside the temple that you only get a chance to “be” the church to everyone else one day out of the year?
Jacke said,
December 14, 2005 at 9:50 pm
Ninjanun,
This quote from your link (http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/how-the-megachurch-stole-christmas-day-worship)hit the mark for me:
“I’m seriously asking: why is it not okay to stay home on Christmas Day and worship with your family in a cozy family environment? Why can that not be as significant a worship event as going to church? And if it can’t, can it ever? Is my church worship experience always superior to my family worship experience?…Is it not possible that commemorating the birth of Christ at home could actually make the experience more special and significant rather than less? Again, honest questions from a layman who couldn’t pastor a church if his life depended on it.”
I don’t really see a thing in the world wrong with staying home with your family to celebrate Christmas on a Christmas Sunday. Being close with family and reading the Christmas story, singing a few Christmas carols with your immediate family can be a very intimate and rewarding time of worship. Honestly, I’m torn, I feel pressured to go to Church because my Pastor phrased it that we should give up 60 minutes for Jesus on Christmas Sunday, this implies that if I don’t appear at church that I am not willing to give Jesus 60 minutes of my time on Christmas day. That is just simply not true and I resent that implication. So, now I am asking myself, am I going to go to church on Sunday because I want to go to celebrate Christ’s birth in that way or am I going because I don’t want the Pastor to think that I wouldn’t give Jesus 60 minutes of my time in corporate worship? If the later is the reason I’m going then I should just stay home anyway because I don’t believe Jesus will be at all impressed with my offering of time. It is a decision I will have to make this year.
ninjanun said,
December 15, 2005 at 12:41 am
Jacke, I think the main point of the article is that these churches aren’t even giving their members the option of attending a regular Sunday morning service (even just a pared-down one), much less a Christmas day service. No individual should feel *compelled* to come to a church service…then, like you said, you wonder if you’re doing it for the right reasons, or because you feel guilted into it. However, the corporate church should at least be available, like they normally would on that day, for those who want to attend. Make sense?
I don’t think anyone is saying every Christian has to be in a church building on Christmas Sunday, just that it’s strange and suspect that these churches are not having services (when they normally would) and giving the reasons they have. It’s also weird that many of the leaders of these mega-churches consulted among each other before deciding what to do.
Jacke said,
December 15, 2005 at 7:03 am
I could not agree with you more, Ninjanun.
Scott said,
December 15, 2005 at 10:17 am
Just a note, I heard a story on NPR about this today. You can listen online at
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5053846
Later.
Philip said,
December 15, 2005 at 11:00 pm
I find it interesting that you are critical of a church that encourages families to spend time together and cancels a service. I would think that we should all be as critical of you for thinking that you, with your foul mouth, have any right to speak of what the church is doing.
I think you need to do work closer to home before you venture out into the hood. I am disappointed in you and yet I have never met you. However, reading your article and reading the title of your blog confuses me deeply.
I guess you have some growing to do. We all do. So I can forgive you. I just wonder if the Bad A$_ language and such gets you more traffic or if you really think it is ok to criticize a church and speak the way you do. I am a minster’s kid as well.
God Bless.
Jacke said,
December 15, 2005 at 11:41 pm
Philip, I am a Conservative and I am a Christian. I would have to say that your opinion that Brandon has no right to speak about the church or hold a reasonable discussion about it because of his language is a bit self-righteous considering you obviously do not frequent this blog and know little about him. I would suggest that if you wish to have an open dialog as a guest at someone else’s blog that you might show the same respect for the blog owner which you might expect from guests at your forum. Normally, I might find myself supporting your argument but the sheer rudeness of your remark discourages me from doing so. I suspect you just dropped by to drum up a little action at your newly reopened forum. After this display, I doubt you’ll get many takers from this “hood.”
ninjanun said,
December 16, 2005 at 2:09 am
[clapping]
Well said, Jacke, well said. Took the words right out of my mouth, in fact. Except I probably would have used a healthy dose of cussing, just to stick it to the (arrogant, self-righteous) Man, so to speak.
wtfwjd? indeed.
Jacke said,
December 16, 2005 at 8:50 am
Ninjanun,
I’m not necessarily endorsing foul language, but I’ll tell you something that occurred to me last night after I had sent that reply to Philip. It’s very simple, really, Philip was more interested in Brandon’s language than he was in Brandon.
Last night, after this, the scripture was brought to my mind about when a wealthy man and a poor man enter the temple…we are not to show favoritism to the wealthy man, fawning over him and setting him in a place of honor while asking the poor man to sit in the back on the floor. In that case those two people were being treated differently based upon outward appearance. I believe that Philip judged Brandon based upon his “outward appearance” yesterday. Philip has not seen past dialogs in this group about cussing but I just don’t think we should allow that “outward appearance” to keep us from looking at the greater argument in this post, which certainly is, in my opinion, worthy of discussion.
That’s not to say that the “cussing debate” isn’t worthy of discussion also, but rudeness is rudeness. I’m not sure that cussing is any more rude than what Philip said (and ironically, note the title of this post). Not everyone has been called a “political whore,” among other terms of endearment, like me, I’d guess, so they might not have developed a “thick skin” so to speak, I don’t think that EVERY Conservative who happens to be a Christian would be able to withstand some of the attacks I have undergone in my internet life and that may or may not be a good thing… another topic, is my conscience being seared??? :0
That, and if anyone is going to attack Brandon, I get first dibs.
Sorry I continued an off topic discussion but I just felt the need to clarify.
Scout said,
December 16, 2005 at 9:47 am
Wow. You’re more uptight than I initially thought. It’s not like they are having no Christmas services, they’re just doing them earlier in the week. Big deal.
QuasiMegachurcher said,
December 16, 2005 at 11:50 am
For those interested….read Romans 14 and 15 in light of this discussion. Any serious discussion related to Christianity should have at it’s foundation what God Himself says about the situation….so…..check it out, if you’d like! And…you don’t even need to attend a church service to do it!! Wow! What a deal!!!
Josh said,
December 16, 2005 at 1:29 pm
Any serious discussion related to Christianity should have at it’s foundation what God Himself says about the situation….
Well…Romans 14 and 15 weren’t written about this situation. But that’s certainly one of the bits I’d pick too.
Joshua said,
December 16, 2005 at 2:20 pm
Hey!
I don’t know what to think about the canceling church thing. On one hand it totally screws with the religious people, which I like. But on the other hand this could show how selfish & imature the Church (the family of God) is. I’m afraid that there is no understanding of the Christian’s spiritual DNA. Sure christians say that they’re brothers and sisters in Christ, but does that mean anything?!?
A good book to read is “Stop Dating The Church, Fall in Love with The Family Of God” by Joshua Harris.
Here is a link to the book: http://www.sovereigngracestore.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=B3120-00-11
dufflehead said,
December 16, 2005 at 2:33 pm
actually, Paul wrote those.
unless you are saying Paul is God?
Jacke said,
December 16, 2005 at 6:39 pm
A whole bunch of people consider the Bible, no matter which prophet or Apostle wrote it, to be GOD’S Word, Dufflehead. Which parts of the Bible do you consider to be from God and which parts do you consider to be from men?
ninjanun said,
December 16, 2005 at 8:47 pm
Please, let’s not get off-topic. I’m sure Brandon and Dufflehead have covered such topics as cussing and the interpretation of scripture in other posts (or maybe they will in the future). No need to beat a dead horse.
Back on topic: most likely, no one is going to change anyone’s mind here, but the point of dialogue is to try to understand different viewpoints. That’s a bit hard when some people come into the conversation without bothering to read all the “dialogue” in the comments, or make ad hominem attacks about the owner of the blog (or anyone else) based on the title of their blog or their choice of words.
Philip said,
December 17, 2005 at 12:32 am
Ok, all of the other issues about cussing, me being judgemental, and such; let’s drop those. The real issue was not that I was being rude, which I wasn’t. I forgot that we live in such a pc time that true honest stright-forwardness no longer is warranted.
I am not judging anyone. A judge passes a sentence. I was simply stating the obvious. Cussing is not a Christian attribute. Saying that people are judging you when they are simply being honest is a cop out. It’s like you are telling me that if I see a black pot, I can talk about the pot and how useful it is, but I am not allowed to say that it is black. It is the whole “elephant in the corner” delima. It is not judgement to call something what it is. Cussing is worthless and does not in any way help OUR image as Christians. If I were judging you, I would have to pronounce your sentence. I cannot and will not do that. That is God’s place. But it is my place to help a fellow Christian brother. That IS Biblical. We are our brother’s keeper.
I don’t want to put the blogger down. I just simply asked a question. You say that the church is being hypocrytical by closing on a holiday. I simply asked, do YOU have the right to talk about hypocrasy?
I am not trying to be rude, my friend. I love you in Christ. I am not being hypocritical. I do not cuss. I find it repulsive and I think it sets us back as Christians. Because on average, most people think it is a bad habit, even those that do it recognize that. I just don’t think we should criticize a church for something like this when we have a website full of filthy language. I am calling em liek I see them. I am sorry if honesty offends, but I am from the school that says honesty is more important than what people think about me. There is only One I have to impress.
As far as drumming up traffic to my site. Please. I really could care less. There are people who need my services and they will join. I had members before I had to shut down for a time. I will have more. But thank you for your concern. God bless.
dufflehead said,
December 17, 2005 at 3:54 am
ah, the old “let’s drop it but i’ll get the last word in and talk about nothing but the thing we’re supposed to be dropping” ploy.
do you know what ad hominem is?
here’s my take on the post:
why do congregations feel the need to meet EVERY SUNDAY OF THE YEAR except for holidays?
what about easter? is easter more or less important than Christmas? seems like they’re about the same person, yet congregations feel compelled to have “easter sunday shows.”
but Christmas? no, Christmas is for the nuclear family, not the family of God.
Jacke said,
December 17, 2005 at 6:59 am
Philip writes:
“The real issue was not that I was being rude, which I wasn’t. I forgot that we live in such a pc time that true honest stright-forwardness no longer is warranted.
I am not judging anyone. A judge passes a sentence…
… I simply asked, do YOU have the right to talk about hypocrasy?”
Case closed.
I don’t do very well with this whole
“let’s drop it but i’ll get the last word in and talk about nothing but the thing we’re supposed to be dropping” ploy, Dufflehead.
Last word? :0
Philip said,
December 17, 2005 at 8:17 am
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally “argument to the man”) or attacking the messenger, is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself. - Wikipedia
Good point, and proficient use of the English language…
To DIRECTLY answer the question about having church on Sunday…
You can’t honestly tell me that it is going to be harmful to cancel services one day and ask families to spend it together. My church cancels evening services on Mother’s day and Father’s day. Considering that family is important to God in scripture, I think it is good to allow families this time together. You know the kind of world we live in these days. It is so busy. It doesn’t hurt the few times a year that a church might be closed to allow families time together.
There is my answer. I will also answer in a question. Can you tell me EXACTLY what you suppose is going to hurt by closing on this day?
Brandon said,
December 17, 2005 at 8:40 am
I would humbly suggest, as the author of this blog, that we wait for Philip to come up with something that is worth responding to. Right now, he’s simply whipping us all up into a frenzy–frankly, his comments don’t warrant that. Yes, they’re hurtful and judgemental and wrong, but ultimately, he hasn’t approached this conversation as a conversation. He’s approached it as a platform: His platform to send his message.
I think that perhaps giving him such an audience only encourages him.
If he approached (or in the future approaches) this community with the expectation of engaging in dialogue, then my response would be different. But, that hasn’t happened.
So, I say, “Whatever.”
His proclaiming of the “truth” doesn’t do much for me.
Philip said,
December 17, 2005 at 2:27 pm
I guess you see “truth” as relative. I think it is absolute. I see things black and white, because I choose to.
I have approached this community as a conversation. I have been truthful and upfront. I gave my thoughts on cancelling church services on Christmas. You were all too offended by my honesty and straight-forwardness to overlook the pain it caused you and simply reply to my argument.
You see, you are all missing the point. I am simply saying that the question posed by this site of whether or not to have a church service is mute considering that the website has foul language all over it, who would care what this site has to say about church?
Would I listen to a sexual predator neighbor tell me how safe a neighborhood is to live in? Would I listen to a robber tell me how safe it is to store my money in a certain bank?
I just think it is rediculous that we can sit here with words like “a__” listed above and think that this is a forum where we should be judging (to use your words from earlier) a church for its decision to cancel services. I feel confident that I am not being rude, mean, or dishonest about my answer. It would have been much easier for you guys to just have taken my comment and realized, you know he might just have a point and let it rest. You made the big deal out of it because you were offended by my honesty. I apologize if it hurt, but fact is fact. Foul language is not a friut of the Spirit. I am also the son of a “preacher man”, and thank God he taught me how to conduct my self.
meg said,
December 18, 2005 at 1:03 am
Some people don’t have families to stay home with. Some people hate the families they are required to stay home with. For some people, church is the only or, at least, the most important family they’ve got (and I kind of think that’s the way it’s SUPPOSED to be.)
Jacke said,
December 18, 2005 at 1:07 am
Excuse me, Brandon, but I WILL address Philip, I hope that won’t offend you.
Philip, it is not that I particularly find what you are saying in error, it is the way in which you have approached Brandon and others. You claim to have “approached this community as a conversation,” and yet your conversation has for the most part been one of “you can’t talk about this issue because you aren’t perfectly perfect.”
Well, excuse me, but none of us are perfectly perfect, Philip. What right have you to have a forum and hold discussions in that forum, what right have I to have a blog and hold discussions there, do you and I not have sin in our lives? If we do not, then God is a liar and I do not believe that God is a liar, Philip. Your sin and my sin may not be as blatant as Brandon’s word ASS (is ass even a cuss word???) in the introduction to his blog but do you deny that you have sin in your life? I do not.
If none of us were allowed to discuss an issue regarding the church because we in some way failed to set the perfect example for others then I think we’d need to all join a monestery (sp?) tomorrow and take a vow of silence. I have no pretentions that I am a less than perfect human being who makes daily mistakes and I am not a believer in moral relativism, while I cannot say that I never EVER utter a cuss word I work at not using that sort of language. I’d say, under your strict guidelines for discussion and debate that every church in America and the world at large, should roll up the sidewalks and turn out the lights and wait for Hillary Clinton to sing.
Have a Merry Christmas with your family, Philip. God bless. We’re all very happy that your father was such a good example and teacher to you in your youth. That’s just great for you!
Philip said,
December 18, 2005 at 12:52 pm
You are all very touchy. I believe that if you are going to call yourselves Christians and participate in calling a church hypocritical that would would welcome someone who is also yuor brother in Christ to challenge what you believe and how you act just as you are so willing to do to the church mentioned above.
Please do review my previous posts. I never claimed to be perfect. I even said in a previous psost that I only speak to the issue of profanity because that is one thing in my life that I DO have under the blood and it is not a problem for me anymore.
Trust me, I realize that we did not all have the same experiences growing up that I did. I know that some of you might have been abused, hated, and dis-owned by your families. I consider myself blessed. And I do not pity you, but I do thank God for the experiences that He allowed you to go through to attempt to make you a better person.
Meg, consider yourself worthy that God looked on you with such favor and trust in you. He must have felt you were up to the challenges He gave you. If not, then He is a liar. The Bible says we will “never” be given more than we can handle - through His strength.
And to the issue of “moral reletivsm” I say thank you to Satan for such a wonderful excuse. We must all say thank you for we all use this one to our advantage, don’t we? It really takes the guilt off of us to say that morals are relative. Shew!!! Helps me sleep at night to know that murder, sexual immorality, filth, hatred, hypocrasy, etc are all ok as long as I think they are ok. God will not hold me accoutnable for something I think is ok.
Cmon guys, we know that there are some things in the Bible that are a little fuzzy. We are not given every detail about every subject, but there are some things that are cut and dry. Our outward appearance and character should exhibit what we believe. I believe in Christ, so I want to show people that I am a “little Christ” which is what Christian means. I want them to see a glimpse of the Savior in me. And before you say that if I want people to see Christ in me that I should not be so harsh, judgemental, and critical of others…I encourage you to read the New Testament. Jesus was honest AND loving. I love you all. Even those of you who hate my guts right now. I could sit in a worship service with you and praise God all day. I could serve along side you, but I will still be honest with you. Do you remember Jesus calling the Pharisees a brood of vipers. it probably did nto sit well and yet he loved them, he wanted better for them.
There are moral absolutes. It does matter what we do during our lifetime and how we handle ourselves. We have been called out to be holy (not perfect). And we do have the right to constructively criticize (admonish) our brothers as long as we are willing to accept the same. These are all Biblical principles. Fact not fiction.
For example, I take your admonishing of how I conducted myself on my first visit. I understand that I should not have been so cruel. I will try better in the future. And yet, I will also not be so politically correct as to not state the obvious. Thank you for your criticism. And I do love you all despite your faults, and my own scars. I hope that you accept me as I am and yet not let me wallow in sin. Accept me, but love me to be better than I am. Isn’t that the point?
dufflehead said,
December 18, 2005 at 2:45 pm
dude, you sure are hung up on cussing. maybe you can post about why you think cussing is a sin over on your blog and we could all hash it out over there?
“My church cancels evening services on Mother’s day and Father’s day. Considering that family is important to God in scripture, I think it is good to allow families this time together.” dito. but why cancel Christmas, as it is not a “family holiday” like mother’s day and father’s day? in fact, neither of those days are Christian holidays, i believe.
why have congregational services in a temple every sunday of the year EXCEPT Christmas? that’s the big question of the post.
Philip said,
December 18, 2005 at 5:10 pm
And my answer is two part:
1)Does this site really have the right to pose that question?
2)My church cancels services on other holidays. I think there are times when services should be cancelled. It is not for vacation although the ministers could definately use a break. It is not to party hardy instead of worshipping. But I think there are times when it is best to allow families time together (those who do) and let people enjoy a holiday. Many people already complain that the church is stiff necked. Give them some slack for allowing people some time on a Sunday not to have to volunteer or be stressed out. I am a minister’s kid. I know how stressful it is for a pastor and the other staff. Please, give them a break and some slack and let the people just celebrate Christmas without being haggled over wether or not they are faithful Christians. Even God took a day to rest…
dufflhead said,
December 18, 2005 at 10:23 pm
“Does this site really have the right to pose that question?”
wtf? that’s some audacity to ask if someone has the right to question something. do you believe in the bill of rights?
and you never answered my question. even in two parts.
Philip said,
December 18, 2005 at 11:03 pm
Yes, I do believe in the Bill of Rights. I had family in the Revolutionary War and all wars since. I believe in freedom of speech.
This sites right to free speech was never in question. I did not mean that the site had no right to speak on this issue because of legal issues or boundries. I was speaking of self control. Of course we all have the right to speak our minds, but shouldn’t we be careful what we allow our minds to say and dwell on?
I am not the owner of this blog. I am aware of that. I am not telling Brandon ( I think that’s his name) what to say. I am asking him to evaluate what he is already saying. I CAN say whatever I want, but there are some things I CHOOSE not to say.
dorsey said,
December 19, 2005 at 7:56 am
Then I suppose we should all count our blessings.
Brandon said,
December 19, 2005 at 12:29 pm
And, Philip, I would strongly encourage YOU to re-evaluate your message. Perhaps, prior to calling into question the validity of my asking questions, you’d do well to think a touch about your own dialogue.
Philip said,
December 19, 2005 at 9:45 pm
Show me where I said something wrong. I have already apologized for being “harsh” although I was only straight-forward and said nothing I did not honestly feel. I answered the question more than once. I was very clear about my answer and explained every aspect of it.
Plain and simple…Give the church a break. They get enough criticism from the World. The last thing they need is Christians murmuring about ONE SUNDAY. And we should ALL watch everything we do, not just how we treat others (talking about my brashness upon arrival to this site) and how we speak and handle ourselves.
Period. God Bless. And I hope that one day you find some sort of peace that will put an end to your depressive, cynical, and disturbing attitude on life and Christianity. Being a “bad” Christian is not something to be proud of. I read your description on why you call yourself a bad Christian. Sometimes there is a reason why all of the other fish are swimming the other way, Brandon.
By the way, I can agree with you on a lot of issues regarding the church. WE are a bunch of hypocrites. We are two-faced. We are sinners (saved by grace). We do sit bored in churches like we would rather be somewhere else. We do get tired of listening to sermons after 5 minutes. Okay Okay, we are horrible people…but we are, by the grace of God, His children.
I just wish that instead of using cynical and critical speach to get your points across that you would just come out and say what you mean without sounding like you are on the other team.
I have made my case. I will not come back to your blog, which I am sure makes you happy as a lark. I will pray for you and your attitude. And before you make any smart elic remarks, please do pray for me and my attitude. Maybe God will bless us both for doing what we believe to be His will for us.
grace said,
December 19, 2005 at 10:33 pm
I cannot stop laughing and read this out loud to my husband. Thanks for the cynicism!
grace
Rivikah said,
December 19, 2005 at 10:40 pm
Just to stir things up a little more…
Is family really as important to God as we suppose it to be? Matthew 10:34-39 and Luke 9:57-62 are puzzling.
Brandon said,
December 19, 2005 at 10:49 pm
Dear Philip,
Since you seem largely unable to ascertain what exactly makes trolls like yourself so glowingly offensive, I’ve taken a few minutes to excerpt a few quotes from you that are at best rude. Just sit back, relax, and read:
If you think this post is foul-mouthed, you should search around a while and read some of my really raunchy stuff. None of this, however, has any bearing on the rightness or wrongness of what I assert–as many others have already pointed out, and you’ve ignored.
Probably because I’m not you, and God knows we’ve all sinned and fallen short of the glory of Philip.
Didn’t you just say you didn’t really know me?
So, it’s cool to talk about me being a reprobate sinner whose voice isn’t worth hearing on topics religious, but heavens let’s not point out the log in your eye.
It’s not your “honesty” that offends, Philip. It’s your self-righteous ass-headedness that gets people in a lather. In fact, re-reading your first post, you didn’t say one damn thing about churches cancelling services on Christmas. Instead, you focused ENTIRELY about how I didn’t have the right to talk about it because I use words that you think are bad.
Philip you probably use words I THINK are bad. But that doesn’t mean that your opinion is worth any less than mine.
Damn straight. We tend to get that way when people go out of their way to behave badly…
But hang on…there’s more:
Now, I hadn’t really responded to this earlier. But this one’s got me pissed off. You berate me, my community members, but for shit’s sake–my dad, a man of the cloth???
Dirty pool, yo. Dirty, dirty pool.
FYI, my dad reads my blog, at least on occasion. So, yes, he knows that I’m a liberal, he knows that I drop the F-bomb from time to time, and while I doubt he’s going to turn that into a habit in his own life, he understands why I do it.
Had you come here, Philip, to discuss as a part of a community, the topic du jour, you could’ve said anything you liked.
Instead, you came in with guns blazing.
You came off sounding like a fascist, and then you called that fascism “honesty and truth”. THEN, to top it all off, you can’t understand why people get a little ruffled?
Are you serious?
And now, now when things get rough and I call you out and say that you should think some about your dialogue, you tell me you’re leaving and that you don’t understand what you did wrong.
So, if you must leave, I understand. That’s not what I want, and not why I write this. But, it’s not fair that just because this is my blog I have to let you go ape on me and other members of this community without any retort.
You’re welcome here, but there’s something you need to understand about “here.” We really like discussion. Broad proclaimations that our questions aren’t valid, or that they shouldn’t even be asked by us aren’t welcome.
I hope you stick around.
ninjanun said,
December 19, 2005 at 11:01 pm
I will pray for you too, Brandon.
And back on topic, Greg over at The Parish has some good thoughts on why the “spending time with our families” excuse just doesn’t hold water.
ninjanun said,
December 19, 2005 at 11:06 pm
Gah! My links never seem to show up! Brandon, if you could e-mail me sometime and give me a brief tutorial in how to do links in your comments (since I seem to always eff it up) I’d truly appreciate it. I hate it when my stupidity and ignorance are so glaring. It’s embarrassing!
Here’s the link I referenced (as parody, or sarcasm, or just being a smug jackass, if you will):
http://edgeoffaith.com/2005/09/i-will-pray-for-you.html
and here’s Greg’s post at The Parish I referenced:
http://theparish.typepad.com/parish/2005/12/church_on_sunda.html
Brandon said,
December 19, 2005 at 11:17 pm
Nun,
Something’s screwy w/ my software. It’s not your fault. Hopefully, with the next upgrade that’ll be fixed.
ninjanun said,
December 20, 2005 at 1:46 am
well, that’s good to know.
Here’s a another link from Greg’s blog:
http://theparish.typepad.com/parish/2005/12/dear_jesus_sorr.html
It’s entitled “Dear Jesus: Sorry We couldn’t make it to your birthday”
and it actually talks more about why the “spending time with family” argument doesn’t hold water.
Jacke said,
December 20, 2005 at 5:23 pm
Okay, just to defend my fellow Conservative, Philip, a wee bit. The first Progressive Christian blog I visited I went in with “guns blazing” too, and I think I turned out all right? I’m still mending fences there today. Brandon’s points were all well founded, I cannot disagree but Philip is a brother too.
Have any of you “Progressives” ever gone visiting “Conservative” CHRISTIAN blogs and been virtually all alone there? Consider that even your fellow “Progressive” soul mates who frequent there didn’t come to your defense, but actually defended the “Conservatives” instead of you!!!
Am I a troll, Brandon?
I know this is off topic, but it HAS been part of the discussion.
Brandon said,
December 20, 2005 at 5:55 pm
No Jacke, you’re not a troll. You’re a part of the community who doesn’t just happen by on the rare occasion to toss out the odd flame.
Philip and I have contacted eachother via email and I’d say there’s been some reconciliation. So, don’t think this is all rocky ground. He said he’ll be back and I hope he is.
And, yes, I’ve visited conservative blogs, and have been the minority voice. I think you’d be hardpressed to find many of us progressives who haven’t. Remember, it’s kind of your religiion.
Jacke said,
December 20, 2005 at 8:33 pm
Remember, it’s kind of your religiion.
I don’t get it. :/
Philip said,
December 21, 2005 at 10:08 pm
I think what Brandon was trying to say is that we can all tend to be quite touchy when it comes to our religion. I would even go further in saying that we all would fight and even die for what we believe. If not, then it is just RELIGION and not faith. It is easy to get hot when there are so many differences in opinion and yet, that is why we have places like this.
Jacke said,
December 25, 2005 at 11:16 pm
Just stopped in to let you all know that I attended a lovely Christmas Eve meeting at my church last night. There were probably 200-250 in attendance, which is actually quite a lot as our regular “Sunday School” attendance is around 136-150. I opted not to go to church today, but last night. I was responsible for much of the food preparation for our afternoon meal. I did ponder the story of Jesus with Mary and her sister, Miriam? Wherein Jesus reminds the one sister busy preparing for guests that the other sister is attending to the important thing. Thank God that He is full of Grace. Thank Him for His precious Gift. Merry Christmas, everyone.
Andy said,
December 30, 2005 at 2:11 am
This is late, but I have to comment. I attend a very small church that decided to do the same thing that MH did. We had no idea anyone else was considering it.(we’re kinda sheltered that way)
I think everyone is missing one point: The churches in question ARE celebrating Christmas. They are having services on another day close to Christmas Day. Everyone seems to be saying that they “aren’t even celebrating their most important day of the year”, and yet they are. Considering the fact that Christ wasn’t even born on the 25th of December I don’t actually see a problem. If they decided to pull out of the recognition of Christ’s birth altogether that would be another story.
Just my two cents…..