10.31.05
further thoughts on being a bad christian
This post is a sort of response to a conversation that I’ve been having over at Steve Chastain’s blog about uses of language–it started off as a discussion about swearing (and some would limit its utility to that domain)–but I feel quickly morphed into a broader discussion about ethical discourse.
Here’s the short version of the argument just for clarity’s sake. Bear in mind that I’m summarizing the positions of others, thus, my context is incomplete. Please read other’s statements of their own positions, as they’ll be more accurate representations of what those folks believe.
Steve Chastain: It was his blog where the conversation began. Steve seemed particularly reticent to state an explicit position. Ultimately he argued that anyone clinging rigidly to either side of the argument was probably guilty of being a legalist in one way or another.
Jade: Thinks that the use of the word, “Fuck” is a poor use of language. While I didn’t completely understand her argument about whether it was sinful or not, I think it’s completely fair to say that she’s against using the Fuck-word.
Brandon: Thinks that the use of the word, “Fuck” is appropriate and helpful in expressing one’s self. Sees nothing morally wrong with it or any other ‘explitives’.
If you’ve been around here for a while, you’ve noticed that I’ll drop the occasional bit of ’salty language’. In fact, I’ve written a number of explanatory treatises on my decision to include these words as part of my everyday blog vocabulary, and my decision to exclude others. I’ve even theorized that it would be ethical for Christians to use more swear words in their daily speech patterns.
Long story short, I’ve written and thought a lot about this topic, and I feel strongly about it. With all that as context, I’d like to respond to a post that Jade made over at Steve’s site. I didn’t want to litter Steve’s comment section so I decided to take my response over here. Plus, I thought that this was something that would benefit the larger community of folks that happen by this place from time to time.
Jade posted this to Steve’s site, and I think that the comment is pretty fairly directed at me–though others were probably targeted as well:
But I think that some of your readers are offensive and negative and do not see your true love of God. Maybe I have not been here long enough to see the better sides of some of your readers, but I do not believe that I will stay around to see if they come out. What I have found on this site is more negative and damaging than anything that I have ever found in a church…
…But here is one final thought for all -. If I want to be torn down for my faith and my beliefs, I would rather go to non-Christians than to my brothers and sisters in Christ. There is nothing in your attitudes (other than Steve’s) that I find even remotely Biblical or even the slightest bit helpful.
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things”
Well that’s a shocker. Accused of being unBiblical. Never heard that one before.
Here’s my thing, Jade is passing herself off as the noble creature. The defender of all that is right. The positive-est person alive. That’s what it means to be a ‘good’ Christian.
I’m calling her bluff on that. Christians aren’t called to be happy all the time. In fact, as I pointed out in my previous post, I don’t even really think that Christians are called to be content…I would even go so far as to say that they absolutely ARE called NOT to be content. Sometimes, negativity is holy.
I find it poigniant that I’m making the point of holy discontent on Reformation Day. Normally, we think of Reformation Day as the day where you dress up and get candy. But, more historically, Reformation Day is a day of celebration that as Christians we are CALLED to holy discontent. To holy dissatisfaction.
Today, we celebrate the fact that Martin Luther was a bad Christian. Damn skippy, I’ll say it again: Today we celebrate the fact that Martin Luther was a bad Christian. Oh yes, he was a monk and probably prayed more all three readers of this blog, combined. But, you know what? He stepped out of the shell of conformity. He called the Church on its crap.
If that’s what I’m being accused of, either by defending the use of ‘taboo’ words, or whatever, if I’m being accused of calling the Church on it’s crap, of challenging the status quo. Well, then I’m proud to stand accused. I’m proud to be guilty.
And it’s not even that I’m so passionate about swearing. I’m not. I mean, I would say that I swear about as much (if not a little more) in real life as I do online. But, I’m not passionate FOR swearing. I think it’s cool if you can make your point without using swear words…but that doesn’t make you any better of a Christian than I.
What, then, am I passionate about? I’m passionate for honest and fair dialogue, for not using veiled rhetoric, for not tearing down people to make your point.
Steve made the point that in the discussion about swearing on his blog, we were really all being legalistic. Straining for gnats he called it. I think he’s right, in a sense. And, I’ll even admit it. I am quite legalistic about the language I use. I think that’s because scripture has clearly mandated how we are to use our words.
However, I think often times Christians misunderstand scripture. They assume that there is some finite ‘blacklist’ of words up in heaven that are unholy. I don’t buy that. Words, as a part of God’s cultural mandate to fill the earth and subdue it, fall–in my opinion–under the banner of creation. They’ve been given to us to use responsibly, wisely, shrewdly, even. Words are beautiful things, but they can be used to tear down rather than to explain, or to build up.
Christians, out of the same mouth, have the tendency to ignore a certain subset of words–words which they simply cannot show evidence for being ‘bad’–and on the other hand use rhetoric that tears down, belittles, hurts, and lies about others in their discourse. I am simply unwilling to accept that the use of the word fucking as a modifier for the phrase “fantastic day” is wrong.
Likewise, I’m unwilling to say that using argumentative tools such as a myriad of logical fallacies, belittling others, inappropriately using positonal power to coerce or manipulate, etc is a-okay when it comes to the ethics of discourse. Such a conclusion is simply contrary to the teachings of the Gospel. And, I needn’t provide a, albeit ill-fitted, scriptural quote to overpower my respondents. My words stand just as they are.
As my informed opinion.
You are, as always, free to share yours.
ninjanun said,
October 31, 2005 at 5:56 pm
You know what’s interesting? I just went back and read the entire conversation on Steve’s blog, and what she says about “some readers are offensive and negative and do not see your [Steve’s] love of God” absolutely DOES NOT JIVE with the comments that were going on between you and Steve (or anyone else for that matter) before Jade joined the discussion and getting onto people for using salty language and wanting to honestly critique the church. I have my suspicions that “Dawn” and “Stavro99″ are not real people, but ghost-written (notice the same sentence structure, language and arguments being presented) by Jade. I could be wrong, of course, but it’s interesting that other people came to jade’s defense and used the EXACT scenario she was arguing about after we all called her on her other arguments.
I don’t mean to continue the argument here, of course, but it’s just something I noticed as I was looking back through all the comments over on Steve’s blog.
Benjamin said,
October 31, 2005 at 8:08 pm
Well fuck.
Jacke said,
October 31, 2005 at 11:20 pm
People decide what words are “bad” and what words aren’t and I don’t know exactly how that collective decision is made. Lol.
I like language, and I don’t swear but swear words don’t really offend me, particularly.
I like the honesty I find on this blog.
I’ve engaged in my share of rhetoric that might be less than encouraging, but, I’d have to say, I have done so in honestly speaking what is on my mind at the time, not in an effort to be hurtful or tear anyone down. I think it is important for us to be honest with one another, even when we disagree, even when it could be painful to hear. I refuse to be other than I am, I’m kinda like Popeye in that regard, “I yam that I yam and that’s all that I yam!”
I have been evolving, considerably, in the area of compassion, though, even though to some it might not seem so. I think I’m growing in Christ because I am making the effort to at least listen to the voices of those who are more liberal than I. I still believe all of the same things that I always believed but I think I may be somewhat less abrasive than when I first started trying to “discuss” things with liberal Christians. Many things about liberal Christians are a great mystery to me and I cannot agree with them on many points but I believe it is important that we are strong enough to survive the dialog.
Jacke said,
October 31, 2005 at 11:20 pm
P.S.
I took the bad christian test. I didn’t qualify.
Steve C said,
October 31, 2005 at 11:41 pm
Is this how I came across Brandon?
That one jabbed me a little. Was I seemingly that wishy-washy? I thought by my past body of work my position would be quite clear. Should I have to remind you or anyone of Cussfest ‘05? Also, I stated in that post that:
I guess what I am reticent about is the energy it takes to continue to argue a position when sometimes what the person we are arguing with really needs to hear is a good dose of God’s grace. I know we can’t set them free but maybe God’s grace can. No amount of words was changing Jade’s mind on this… so I thought it was time to pack it in and give us all some grace. But of course, you can see how well that went now can’t you? Sometimes even when you give someone an out, they just can’t take it.
Brandon said,
November 1, 2005 at 1:44 am
Oh no, Steve. I’m sorry you read that as ‘wishy-washy’, though, I can see why you would. I was simply trying to offer you the position of being the voice of reason in the dialogue.
I think I fully understand your position, and respect it, too.
D said,
November 1, 2005 at 1:47 am
Well, I’ve got good news and I’ve got bad news. The bad news is, Jade’s fed up with us and won’t be hanging around any longer. The good news is she won’t be hanging around any longer.
[/bad comedy]
It’s frustrating to put energy into a debate only to have the whole effort brushed aside as harsh and not worth their time. Anyone else find that?
…though there are claims that there exist readers who find Steve’s blog interesting but are too afraid to comment for fear of being looked down upon. I wonder, should this be a concern? Do we need more Jades and Sable Chickens? Or do we go for the Christines and Allisons?
This whole Jade incident notwithstanding (which involves a person unwilling to listen), are we, as a community, becoming homogenized? Should that even be a concern? Is there a place for ideologicals in the community? Or does this hypothetical homogeny contribute to our spiritual growth?
Just some things half my mind’s been mulling over while the other half is fuming at realizing I’ve wasted way too much time on a couple emails…(like I said, I’m impetuous….)
Brandon said,
November 1, 2005 at 9:04 am
Jacke said:
I read your blog. I’m not surprised…BUT…you’re still quite welcome around these parts. A dissenting voice is nice to have from time to time.
Also, I agree with you about being honest about our feelings. I agree strongly, even. I would hold that we positively OWE it to the communities we’re a part of to share our honest thoughts, no matter how unpopular they might be.
HOWEVER…(yes, that’s a big however.) It’s possible to be honest and be ethical, or it’s possible to be honest and inethical. Unfortunately, in the exchange over at Steve’s blog Jade–the arguer against the fuck-word–was being honest and inethical. I found this to be a disgusting case of hypocrisy. On one hand she was quoting Philippians about being true and noble and right, and on the other hand she was using inethical and heinous rhetoric to tear down others rather than support her point.
I’m sure she was being honest. But, that honesty wasn’t appropriately shared.
One thing I’ll say for you Jacke, is that at least on this blog (and I haven’t seen all your interactions to know for sure) you’re honest…and kind.
And that I respect greatly.
Jacke said,
November 1, 2005 at 10:39 am
Lol, thanks, Brandon.
When I first started discussions on a “Progressive” Christian blog, I admit I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder and went in “guns blazing.”
Tee hee.
But I like intellectual honesty, and I think that’s what you are talking about when you say ethical or inethical.
We’re all human, I allow myself to learn and I’ve learned a few things, at least I THINK I have.
Rachel said,
November 1, 2005 at 10:51 am
I agree that discontent can be holy, but only if it spurs us on to change. As far as swearing goes, I’m not sure that I would go so far as to promote it in others. Yet I do swear from time to time. And I might even think that the place it has in my life is a good one. I am going to need to ponder that one some more, though.
Stephen said,
November 1, 2005 at 11:09 am
I have a student coming in soon. So I can’t be too long, but I think that there are some things that you cannot express without swearing.
I used to be the assistant editor of a creative magazine at a Christian school. We had a submission that was fantastic. It was a very subtle and honest poem spoken from a narrator who had been raped. The problem for us was that the author used the word “fuck” a number of times.
Since, the publication went out to alumni, many of whom stand clearly on the anti-cussing side, we were in trouble. They provided us with support and funding.
After hours of debate, the editorial staff decided that there was no other word to describe what had happened to the person in the poem (we did not know whether this poem described a real event or not, and in some ways it doesn’t matter). We couold not ask for it to be replaced with “made love” or “had sex”.
Anything more veiled would be a lie. It would not adaquately describe the situation and its effect. Therefore, we decided to support it. The administration felt differently, but that is their problem.
The root point here is that swear words communicate meaning. This meaning reflects a reality, albeit imperfect, and it is dishonest to imagine that that reality does not exist.
Is it any more ethical to say, “God bless your heart,” when you mean, “Fuck off”?
Jacke said,
November 1, 2005 at 11:17 am
I used to have a book of poetry called:
“Love is a Dog from Hell”
I don’t remember the poet’s name and I really liked that book, seems I’ve lost it in moving around.
Is anyone familiar with that book?
Zeke said,
November 1, 2005 at 11:53 am
Steve said:
That one jabbed me a little. Was I seemingly that wishy-washy?
Not wishy-washy–it was clear enough where you stood–but I thought you did try to advocate a middle road when I thought Jade was just flat-out wrong in every conceivable way and we were inarguably and utterly right.
And you know what’s funny? I really do think that. I’m not exaggerating. I admit it.
Sometimes it feels nice not to pretend I’m better than I am.
Audrey said,
November 1, 2005 at 1:27 pm
Brandon, Brandon, Brandon,
Of course there’s a list. It was given to us in St. George of Carlin’s Sermon to the Network Executives. The seven words on the list are shit, piss, cunt, fuck, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits.
Audrey
kate said,
November 1, 2005 at 2:54 pm
Brandon, I just finished an article about the use of “strong language” in art, particularly by Christians. I’ll let you know when it gets a publisher and send you the link…
Genghis said,
November 1, 2005 at 4:23 pm
Wow. Brandon I discovered your blog today, looking for something totally unrelated. But your comments about cussing makes it sound like you’ve been eavesdropping on me and a close friend. He has decided he’s going to have a t-shirt made that says, “Life is Bullshit without Jesus.” I think that is totally cool, but I’m trying to talk him out of wearing it to church next time he plays for the worship team!
The church has an alternate set of commandments that they go by for what is or is not acceptable.
Thou shalt not cuss
Thou shalt not drink alcohol
Thou shalt not smoke
Thou shalt not gamble are among them.
Of course, we can be gluttonous, envious, jealous, and use all sorts of hurtful language. THOSE commandments aren’t so big. It’s that alternate set that’s important
Be sure you pay your tithe this week.
Chris said,
November 1, 2005 at 7:31 pm
On the subject of swearing, the reason why words like “shit” and “fuck” are considered ‘bad words’ in English is because they have their roots in the Anglo-Saxon language, and when England was invaded by the Normans and they added their share of words to English, the older Saxon words (particularly those for bodily functions and the like) became thought of as vulgar, crude and offensive. Some of these words stayed that way, and hence are now thought of as swearing.
So, why is “shit” considered rude? Blame the French.
Frank said,
November 2, 2005 at 2:58 am
I agree entirely your view on contentment. I think that we, as christians in the process of sanctification, are to chase knowledge and familiarity with God to it’s completion. I think the trouble begins when we start to see just how big God is and just how incapable we are of understanding the overwhelming majority of what he has to say, do and offer.
Rocky Moore said,
November 2, 2005 at 5:42 am
I just happened to stumble by here in a MSN search on a different topic. But, since I am here
Will profanity keep you out of heaven? Will people be using it in Heaven?
I really do not know how far the matter truly goes with God. There is however a few things about profanity that makes me wonder.
First is my own experience. At the rip age of 29, I had spent many years liberally seasoning my conversations with profanities. That was 1990 when I finally was Born Again. I was completely consumed by God and could hardly think of anything else for many months.
Shortly after I became a Christian though, I had an episode while installing a shower in my house where I threw a fit, slamming stuff around and using all kinds of colorful terms. I began to weep and cried out to God to help, as I could not do this “Christian walk”, it was just not possible. Immediately, I was delivered of my profanities and it continues until this day. Some may say it was just my own will, but all I know is I have never had to “try” to quit, it just stopped.
That was me, I do not say this will happen for everyone or even why it does may not happen, it just happened to me.
Although I have never really studied hard on this topic in the Bible, as it really has not been any issue, I do think it brings up a couple questions though.
First thing, does the Bible have examples of people using profanities (for their time)? I do not recall any myself.
Next, should we really do something to offend other Christians if it is in our power not to? I wonder if the story in the NT about the meat sacrificed to idols, where they were not to eat of it, not because it was wrong but for those that were around them sake. If people use and defend profanities in front of people that strongly object, is this really how a Christian should act? Maybe it is just something best left to the home?
The part that bothers me the most is the ting of rebellion that comes through. Much like a friend who believes it is fine to drink and be drunk. He is not content at leaving this private to not offend others, instead, when the pastor was visiting, he proudly offers the pastor a beer, knowing that the pastor is against it. This was more an act of rebellion than anything. It did not seem to Christ like to me, it was more that he wanted to shove it in the pastor’s face.
One pastor I had, drove a point all the way home into my brain where it has never departed. That was simply, “The flesh will justify anything”! We can justify anything as being Christian and acceptable to God, if we give ourselves time and desire. There are no absolutes as far as the flesh goes in the line of justification.
What about the non-Christians? Many things in our society try to protect youth from things such as profanity. Movies for an example are rated for their content (although in the last number of years the bar has been set quite low). Just look online, many of the serious chat forums do not allow profanities. It is something that is looked to as “adult” in nature.
What is the purpose of profanities? Can you express the same meaning without them? Whom do they really serve? Does the usage profanity actually show intelligence? Are they just a means to offend, or are they an addiction as it was in my case, something I really did not have control over?
For the most part, I believe profanities in the church are usually a sign of some other concern in a persons walk, and the mere fact of the action should make a person wonder if there is something deeper to look into.
Christians are called to continually develop to be Christ like and every step helps us to that point even though most are nowhere near that level.
Christ says we are to lay down our lives as we are bought with a high price and should no more walk in our desires, but rather keep our minds set upon those things that are above. While I know of no one that has obtained this level, it is still our goal. It is best to take as few of detours as possible
Not here to offend anyone, just though I would offer something to think about while passing through.
Zeke said,
November 2, 2005 at 9:50 am
Rocky, I would encourage you to go back and read the original thread on Steve Chastain’s website, then come back here and we can talk some more. And this time, I think we can have a more productive conversation. I know I have a lot to say but most of it I’ve already said before so if you read the old post we won’t have to repeat ourselves.
Thanks for engaging on this.
Mike said,
November 2, 2005 at 12:39 pm
Brandon, brother: You said
“I am simply unwilling to accept that the use of the word fucking as a modifier for the phrase “fantastic day” is wrong.”
Right or wrong, “fucking” as a modifier for “fantastic day” while curiously alliterative is profane.
As in “taking something sacred and using it in an ordinary way”.
You have to decide if you think something profane is also wrong. I happen to think it is.
If you are describing the sex act, “to fuck” is certainly not profane, and is one of the choices of words you can use
Peter Longwood said,
November 2, 2005 at 2:55 pm
I didn’t read all of the comments on the other blog. However, Jade didn’t say she was was turned off by the language. She might have been and maybe she said that. But your quote is about negativity. She said she found the other site to be very negative with people tearing down each other. She said she didn’t want to be kicked in the nuts or see others kicked. I think that’s fair. What’s so unfucking Christian about not wanting to see people ripped apart?
Brandon said,
November 2, 2005 at 3:17 pm
Peter,
You should really go read Jade’s quote in the context of the conversation I cited. (Kind of like I suggested you do.) Then, you’ll be able to comment on whether or not Jade was behaving ‘unChristianly’ or not. Without that context, you’re kind of out in left field.
Oh, and I think the phrase goes: “fucking unChristian.”
Peter Longwood said,
November 2, 2005 at 3:28 pm
That’s all well and good. And like I said, I did assume she was bothered by the language. But fess up, your rant was about her line that included the word “unbiblical.” That was connected with having the living shit kicked out of people not about cussing. I personally don’t even use the word cuss.
Brandon said,
November 2, 2005 at 3:37 pm
Perhaps, Peter, if she were really talking about having the living shit kicked out of people (which she absolutely was not) there’d be a bit more to your argument. As it was, she didn’t find sugar-y sweet Christianity. She called honesty negativity…and if you’re going to run around calling honesty unbiblical–you’re going to get an argument from the likes of me.
Further, her ‘unBiblical’ statement was a round criticism of both the swearing conversation AND the negativity. I stand by my statements.
Steve said,
November 2, 2005 at 3:41 pm
Peter… go read the post and comments and (as Brandon has suggested) then you can decide for yourself if she was treated unfairly.
You say that her comments are fair:
She said she found the other site to be very negative with people tearing down each other. She said she didn’t want to be kicked in the nuts or see others kicked. I think that’s fair. What’s so unfucking Christian about not wanting to see people ripped apart?
I will go one stop further. Her comment that Brandon quoted in this post is a misrepresentation of the truth. She found the site to be negative and tearing down because there was cursing and people were discussing her objections to the “foul mouths”. She felt that by disagreeing with her that people were tearing her down. No one ever swore at Jade. They swore, but not at her. No one belittled her or attacked her with obscene language.
No one tore her down for her faith or beliefs. Her opinion was critiqued. Plus, she said herself she didn’t think “cussing” was a sin… she just didn’t like it. She felt attacked… but there is a difference.
That’s what Stupid Church People do… they call you on the carpet for your “sins”, then hide behind scripture, then when you challenge them they whine that they are being attacked…. pretty typical of that crowd. And yes… I am a Stupid Church Person too… takes one to know one.
Brandon said,
November 2, 2005 at 3:47 pm
Also, Peter, I think both Steve and I know you’re just trying to offer critique, here. I’m not reading your comments (and I doubt Steve is either) as some harsh attack on me or anyone else.
We’re just saying we disagree with your reading of the situation, and would encourage you to get all the facts before making a decision for yourself.
Just wanted you to know that we’re not hating on you…it’s just a situation relatively near and dear to our hearts.
Audrey said,
November 2, 2005 at 6:46 pm
Mike said,
So tell me, Mike. Are you saying that fucking is sacred?
Audrey
Brandon said,
November 2, 2005 at 6:57 pm
I’ve been thinking a bit about how to respond to this post of Mike’s Audrey. Yours is one of the thoughts I had.
I suppose another assumption Mike makes is that there’s some sacred/secular duality that runs (somehow invisibly) throughout creation.
Of course, I don’t buy this, thus, I really don’t buy Mike’s argument.
Mike said,
November 2, 2005 at 11:29 pm
Audrey and Brandon: If I make a distinction between the sacred and secular, it is a very narrow distinction. I would not do it for shallow religious things like artifacts, times, locations and certain items of clothing.
However, certain things are sacred as defined by their character. Mankind is sacred, in that we carry the image of God. God’s name is sacred and it is too sacred to be used in an empty fashion. Sex is sacred because it is the joining of more than bodies together. 1 Cor. 6 is clear that joining ourselves to another has the closeness needed to join soul and possibly (over time) spirits together.
Most cultures (excluding our own,and perhaps parts of 19th century England) treats sex as sacred. Other religions treat sex as sacred, so Christianity is not the only one.
I treat the word “fuck” as a word which describes something so sublime as to almost be undescribable. I don’t think I stretch God’s revelation of this in Scripture. To profane it is using it as if it were a concept (framed by the word) which is ordinary.
Frank said,
November 3, 2005 at 1:16 am
fuck is such a great word… I mean you have the “fuh” and that’s pretty cool but then comes the “KAHHH”…
Jacke said,
November 3, 2005 at 12:02 pm
Geesh, now I have to tell a personal story which puts my imperfection on display, I HATE it when that happens!
Okay, I was “born again” when I was about 12 years old. I was sooo happy! I wanted to DO something for Jesus! The problem was I just didn’t know WHAT to do, and this was back in the day when every church didn’t have its own “Youth Minister.” What we had in our church was this guy who got us together for a meal in the basement once in a while, but invited the whole church so it didn’t even feel like OUR event, had little to say to any of us and occasionally rehearsed a few songs, loaded us up on a bus and took us to some country church, deep in the woods of Arkansas to sing to about 100 people (on a good night).
Sorry, I digress.
Here I was, just brimming with all this joy and wanting to channel it into some direction but I didn’t know what direction to channel it into and didn’t know of anyone who I could talk to about it and one day I just got fed up with having no *friends* and no way to make any. I decided that the answer would be to turn my back on God, so how did I decide to implement my *plan?* By cussing. I can tell you this, I was so full of Jesus that I had to physically LABOR to force a cuss word to come out of my mouth and when I did? It was painful, but after a few times and after feeling my joy vanish to the outer edges of my heart, I was able to join mainstream “Jr. High,” whoopie!
Now, I wouldn’t venture to speak for anyone else, but when a little 12 year old girl has to fight and struggle to mouth a cuss word out of her Jesus filled heart, that tells me that it was against God or I wouldn’t have had to struggle so.
So, there, that’s my personal story about cussing and my very personal reason for believing that God doesn’t approve of it.
For what it’s worth.
Mike said,
November 3, 2005 at 1:17 pm
Jacke, your story is interesting and perhaps makes a much different point than Brandon. What constitutes cussing is different for everyone. You could not feel comfortable cussing because it had a meaning to you that it doesn’t have for many other Christians. Your heart could not feel at peace doing it. But that is the point of a personal anecdote…to trace what God did in your life.
The only thing I could take from your story is if I am uncomfortable saying a particular word (because of Holy Spirit’s leading), I should think twice about saying it. One person’s cussing is another person’s regular vocabulary. I think the word “fuck” is an exception to that for the reason I mention above.
Brandon said,
November 3, 2005 at 1:20 pm
Or, Jacke, you were having a hard time going against the Christian subculture that told you ‘cussing’ was wrong. I’d speculate that was more of the issue.
At least in my experience…when I sin, it’s pretty easy to do…it’s not really a struggle at all. I don’t think that it really follows that that which is a struggle is necessarily sinful or wrong or falls short of the mark.
According to that argument, people SHOULD be sexually active outside of marriage, people SHOULD give into their temptations. I’m not saying your conclusion is right or wrong, Jacke. I’m just saying that the logic you’re using doesn’t work to support it.
ninjanun said,
November 3, 2005 at 1:31 pm
I think a lot of what we feel is wrong with cussing is because our particular society and culture says so. In Jesus’ day, talking to a Samaritan woman was risque and completely inappropriate for a nice Jewish man to do, too.
When I was 11, I thought the word “butt” was a cuss word, and felt it necessary to apologize to God for saying it.
And as far as strong language being used in the Bible, the greek word skubala which Paul uses in Philippians 3:8 (often translated as “loss,” or “rubbish,”) is actually better translated as “shit” or “dung.” The word typically had a VERY strong connotation, and was used to describe the most foul and putrid of things.
The Crooked Saint said,
November 3, 2005 at 3:23 pm
This conversation is so David Bazan…
I’m a huge fan of this blog…and I don’t really mean to come off like an ass here, but conversations about cussing are kind of played out.
If we’re that convinced that swearing is fine, why don’t we just blow off stupid commments like Jade’s? She admits it’s not a sin. She uses terrible logic and can’t debate for crap.
I understand the whole mind-shift that happens to Christians who finally figure out that the word “shit” isn’t sending anyone to hell. But the fact is, some people cuss and others don’t. Both groups have varying reasons for why. Neither group will convince the otherwise.
It’s like trying to convince me that Petra is a good band
zalm said,
November 3, 2005 at 3:58 pm
I came ever so close to rising to this challenge, just to see if I could do it.
That all sounded fun until I remembered just how bad they were. And then I became ashamed anew at just how much I liked them back in the day.
So, um, thanks.
*sigh*
Steve said,
November 3, 2005 at 4:06 pm
Anyone that throws out a Petra reference wins any and all debates…
I’m done!
Steve Chastain…. out!
The Crooked Saint said,
November 3, 2005 at 4:10 pm
That’s cool. My rant about them on www.boredagainchristian.com has garnered me way too much hate mail already. Whatcha gonna do?
zalm said,
November 3, 2005 at 5:04 pm
Whatcha gonna do?
You’re gonna tell them to get on their knees and fight like a man!
Jacke said,
November 3, 2005 at 5:44 pm
Or, Jacke, you were having a hard time going against the Christian subculture that told you ‘cussing’ was wrong. I’d speculate that was more of the issue.
Nope, Brandon, at age 12 I didn’t know what a Christian subculture was. Now, I am telling you that it felt like ripping my heart out to curse. I STRUGGLED to do it. A Christian subculture just doesn’t do that. Not to me anyway. This was a barrier I had to break in order to curse. It felt physical as well as emotional.
You can speculate all you want, but you can’t know what it felt like to me, it was a personal thing, and, in reality, beyond words to tell.
D said,
November 3, 2005 at 5:53 pm
If we’re that convinced that swearing is fine, why don’t we just blow off stupid commments like Jade’s? She admits it’s not a sin. She uses terrible logic and can’t debate for crap.
I dunno, I can’t help but think we don’t blow off comments like Jade’s ‘cuz comments like Jade’s are the reasons people become outchurched. As such, the opportunity to confront one of the people behind the comments was too good to pass up. That it devolved into a conversation on cussing was unfortunate but also (I think) exposed the issues inherent in people like Jade: the single-mindedness, the legalism, the subtle judgmentalism.
…or maybe I’m just overzealous.
Shteevie said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:05 pm
I think Jaci Velasquez could kick Petra’s butt.
Jacke said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:06 pm
I’ve been thinking about this whole “Christian subculture” thang.
It seems to me that could be used for a very convenient excuse for not listening to the Holy Spirit or your own conscience speaking to you.
It would be awfully easy to just tell yourself when you feel a pang of guilt about doing something, “awww, that’s not the Holy Spirit, that’s just that “Christian subculture.” Dang that “Christian subculture” anyway! Bunch of legalists they are!”
So, you want dissent, there ya go.
Excuses, excuses, it’s all relative right? If it’s wrong for you then you shouldn’t do it but if it doesn’t feel wrong to me so it’s okay? I don’t buy it.
See, YOUR Christian subculture (embodied in this network of commenters) didn’t manage to influence my *feelings* at all, huh?
D said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:22 pm
ack, my ignorance in html is showing. but anyway.
Jacke,
Not to belittle your experience, but the struggle you’re describing sounds almost like a phobic reaction.
Have you ever seen someone with an irrational phobia? Like have a panic attack ‘cuz of something like a feather? The experience phyisically grips them with paralyzing fear; they can start to hyperventilate, and are unable to function during the episode. It’s usually ‘cuz of some conditioning via an experience that may or may not be explicitly remembered.
I’m not saying that you were suffering from a phobia of swearing per se, but it is possible that the Christian subculture conditioned you in such a way that you experienced something similar.
…as for knowing about the subculture, I’d say knowing the architectual style of your house, or that there even has to be one, doesn’t change the fact that you’re sitting in it…
…speaking of which, the issue of conscience is entirely separate. I believe our conscience encourages us to be responsible for our actions. It keeps us from going off the deep end of grace, from using it as a convenient excuse, and instead allows us to use the freedom we have in Christ to reach others. If you want to think of conscience as the Holy Spirit, then in this analogy it’s the tether tied ’round your waist as you venture deeper into the cave that is the world.
…at least I think that’s how it goes.
Zeke said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:27 pm
Excuses, excuses, it’s all relative right? If it’s wrong for you then you shouldn’t do it but if it doesn’t feel wrong to me so it’s okay? I don’t buy it.
There will always be a core of believers that will not give up the conviction that this whole Christian liberty thing is just an excuse to be naughty. Well, here’s one possible progression you might consider:
1. A believer decides that what’s missing in their life is more holiness. “I need to glorify God with my life and not conform to the world!”
2. The believer begins cutting back or ceasing those behaviors they deem to be unholy.
3. In doing so, they begin to notice those behaviors popping up more in other people, including other Christians.
4. The believer begins to wonder how it is those other Christians justify these ‘unholy’ behaviors, and challenges them.
5. The believer offers no other evidence that the behaviors are unholy than what they themselves took as sufficient evidence that they needed to cease the behaviors. In other words, “The reason I don’t do it is the reason you shouldn’t either.”
6. The believer rejects out of hand all arguments in favor of what amounts to the other Christians as an exercise in liberty, because they consider all attempts to excuse the behavior as just rationalizations for sin.
It’s at this point, in my opinion, that we are in a classic projection scenario: the believer striving for holiness doesn’t trust themselves to exercise their liberty, thinks that any attempt to do so would amount to rationalizing sin, and so they project this onto the other Christians. ‘They are just rationalizing their sins. They claim it’s about love, but it’s just more excuses.’
Well, consider it anyway. It’s just one man’s observation… and for the record, I’ve been on that side of the table too.
Shteevie said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:29 pm
I’m a hypocrite for saying this ’cause I swear sometimes (though not like a sailor) but it seems to me that everything we say and everything we do should serve as a witness to the outside world.
If you don’t cuss, people are going to notice it after a while. They may even ask “I notice that you never swear, why is that?” There you go, golden opportunity to share your faith.
Wrong response: “I don’t need to swear because I’m a Christian and I’m better than anyone else. How do you like them apples, punky?”
Apparently, the dudes at Westboro Baptist Church swear all the time. Ever hear one of Phelps’ sermonds?
Shteevie said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:34 pm
Good points, Zeke.
For my money, I’d say that the Bible is our sole grounds for determining what is sinful.
I’m in conversation with a Christian who says it’s evil and wrong to practice Christmas because it has a pagan origin and there’s a verse in Jeremiah that could be talking about Christmas trees and the red berries on mistletoe actually represent the goddess Diana’s menstrual blood and that Santa Claus is a fag.
And isn’t that what legalism is … trying to impose a further set of morality (usually strict)on Biblical revelation? By that token, I guess Catholicism could be considered legalistc.
Now let’s all sing: “I saw Mommy kissing that fag Santa Claus… underneath Diana’s menstrual blood last night…”
Brandon said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:43 pm
Shteevie,
Is ‘f*g’ necessary?
Shteevie said,
November 3, 2005 at 6:55 pm
For emphasis, yes. Direct quote.
Actually, I was more disturbed by the menstrual blood revelation than the word fag.
Brandon said,
November 4, 2005 at 9:04 am
I’m not sure I think it is played out, crooked. For one thing, I think language and its uses are vitally important. Further, I think that yes, superficially at least, no one’s opinion is going to change; however, once we get past the ‘is it right’, ‘is it wrong’ debate, I think this topic has some interesting implications for everyday discourse.
Unfortunately, we often end up sidetracked on the ‘is it right’ ‘is it wrong’ debate. And, I agree, that’s regrettable.
Finally, I think derogation, profanity, cussing, whatever you want to call it, in and of itself, is a fascinating topic. You may not have the zeal about it that I do…and that’s okay. But if there’s one thing I’ve learned in a year and a quarter of blogging, it’s that I need to write what I know and what I’m interested in. Though, if any of you have topics you’d like to hear about, I’m always open to suggestion!
Zeke said,
November 4, 2005 at 9:33 am
For my money, I’d say that the Bible is our sole grounds for determining what is sinful.
Shteevie, indulge me: what is sin?
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 10:18 am
Comment from: D
ack, my ignorance in html is showing. but anyway.
Jacke,
…Not to belittle your experience, but the struggle you’re describing sounds almost like a phobic reaction.
Have you ever seen someone with an irrational phobia? Like have a panic attack ‘cuz of something like a feather? The experience phyisically grips them with paralyzing fear; they can start to hyperventilate, and are unable to function during the episode. It’s usually ‘cuz of some conditioning via an experience that may or may not be explicitly remembered.
I’m not saying that you were suffering from a phobia of swearing per se, but….”
D, thanks for the best laugh I’ve had in days! As a matter of fact I read this last night and it kept me amused for the rest of the evening! Lol.
Help me…help me…I can’t brrreeeeaaatttthhhheeeee!
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 10:25 am
Zeke, I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong. I don’t believe it is relative. That is a primary difference between the “Conservative” and the “Progressive” Christian, imo.
Until very recently there was a long list of actions which were considered to be sins. Now, fortunately for the world, Progressive Christians are enlightening the rest of us that the beliefs held for generation after generation after generation were simply wrong. Geesh, how lucky for the rest of us that Progressive Christians have come along to set us free!
Free at last, free at last…pass the doobie.
:)
The Crooked Saint said,
November 4, 2005 at 10:29 am
It *is* a fascinating topic. I remember very clearly the moment when Tony Neggi told me to “repeat after him: Asshole” I remember the picture in my head of what I thought an asshole was (I was like 7 years old)…I thought it was a nice hole on the ground with flowers…
When I said it to my mom. Holy Pajamas did I get it.
After that…there was power in those words. You could really affect people.
So I’m so there with you when it comes to the power of (especially) cuss words.
What I’m so tired of is what I call the David Bazan syndrome. (I’m a Pedro fan and I’m not trying to knock him or his fans…I own the records…I know Almost there is like the Amazing Grace of indie rock) I think something happened in the Christian indie rock scene when Bazan started “publicly” swearing. You’ve got him all “Fuckin’ potatoes!” There are 3 groups of people that now respond to that. The empowered folk that are like “Damn straight, fuckin’ potatoes!”
The “too scareds” who stand in the corner giggling and pointing saying “He said the EFF word, that’s fricked up!”
And the “Damnation Relation” who really, honestly, believe that somehow these words we can’t say on TV are vulgar according to the Bible and that using them removes salvation or something bad like that.
Obviously the DR crew has the most ridiculous point of view (in my opinion) but it seems as though they have so much power over everyone else. They scream “bloody murder” when someone drops and F-bomb and we indulge it on their terms…whether we intend to or not.
Personally, my response to Jade would have either been silence on the topic or a quick “Best where your thickest skin ’round these parts pal.”
Because that conversation was doomed from the beginning…and I’m guessing everyone knew it.
So while I agree that it’s a fascinating topic…we’re hardly ever able to indulge it on that fascinating level because we relinquish power way too much…and in the worst scenarios, let people drive good honest Jesus lovers out of the churches because of this shit.
Sorry that was long. Erase it if you’d like. It probably didn’t make sense at all.
Brandon said,
November 4, 2005 at 10:36 am
Now, come on Jacke. You may find some progressive Christians who’re serious about the ‘pseudo-post-modernism’ that you describe–but you can’t just run around painting the world with such a broad brush. Especially when you’re wrong.
Most progressive Christians I know–including myself–are just as interested in you with eradicating sin. Most progressive Christians are just trying to work out what the Kingdom requires. Yes, they’re testing the scriptures, and they’re deconstructing past understandings of what it meant to be a Christian…but they’re still pursuing the Kingdom.
I think you’ll find your ‘moral relativism’ cat calls falling on mostly deaf ears around these parts.
D said,
November 4, 2005 at 11:15 am
as a psych major, I am vaguely offended… boohoo
…I was merely trying to point out that the subculture could do what you’re describing, that there’s a logical explanation to what you’ve described.
…then again, hyperventilating as you’re trying to say “fuck” could, I suppose, be intrisicaly amusing.
eh heh…
…and I could point out how generation after generation has been wrong before ::coughslaverycough::, but I fear I’d miss the point.
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 12:09 pm
Brandon,
I’d hope you would recognize sarcasm when you saw it.
If I hang around, you’ll find I use sarcasm quite a bit. Just a little family tradition I don’t particularly want to overcome. Is that *sinful?*
D, I didn’t hyperventilate trying to cuss. As I said I can’t describe what it felt like.
I actually have had a panic attack before when arguing with my ex-husband, during which I hyperventilated, it terrified me because I didn’t know what was happening as I had never experienced anything like it before. This happened years after the experience when I was 12 years old and it was absolutely NOTHING like hyperventilating or having a panic attack. I hope that causes you to feel more in your *element*
Further, as I noted early on in this discussion:
“People decide what words are “bad” and what words aren’t and I don’t know exactly how that collective decision is made. Lol.
I like language, and I don’t swear but swear words don’t really offend me, particularly.”
I would add that in the privacy of my own home I ocasionally, but rarely, cuss just to show the husband I can kick his ass if I want to.
The Crooked Saint writes:
“And the “Damnation Relation” who really, honestly, believe that somehow these words we can’t say on TV are vulgar according to the Bible and that using them removes salvation or something bad like that.”
Who in the world has claimed that cussing will remove salvation!? :0
Zeke said,
November 4, 2005 at 12:10 pm
Zeke, I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong. I don’t believe it is relative. That is a primary difference between the “Conservative” and the “Progressive” Christian, imo.
I would read from your statement that you think that I don’t believe there is such a thing as right and wrong, and that therefore I’m a “Progressive” Christian. Both are untrue.
I can’t see that anyone would call themselves a Christian and claim that there is no difference between right and wrong. That’s well outside of Mere Christianity. And we’re not talking about things that are outside normative Christianity, we’re just debating Christian ethics and practice.
What I try to practice is more humility in my pursuit of truth, but I am definitely in pursuit of truth (for crying out loud, the name of my blog is “One for Truth”). Unfortunately, many evangelicals are just plain arrogant and presumptuous about how *much* of the truth they’ve taken hold of. Obviously you think you have more of it than we do, but don’t seem interested in sharing much more other than to keep calling us wrong without any real evidence to back it up. I could clip out quote after quote from you, but anybody can scroll back as I did and see how you’ve contributed. I keep waiting for you to provide more than the usual Americhurch “you’re just looking for an excuse to sin” canard, and it ain’t coming. But I’m still listening.
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 12:30 pm
Oh, now, Zeke! I’d hardly say I have kept “calling” all of you “wrong” and as far as backing anything up? Why should I, do you think the remark someone made earlier about Conservatives degenerating the debate by quoting endless scripture was lost on me? (paraphrased)
Now, it has been my experience that it does no good to try to back up why I believe what I believe because I draw my conclusions based on the understanding of the scripture into which the Holy Spirit has guided me. When discussing right and wrong, good and bad with people who do not believe the Bible is inerrant, I can quote scripture to back my beliefs all day long and it won’t really prove anything to someone who discounts portions of the Bible. It’s a condundrum, ain’t it?
Upon what do you base your conclusions about what is right and what is wrong? How you feel inside? What? You tell me.
I too can clip out quote after quote from myself to display that I haven’t condemned anyone, but this is interesting. It’s interesting that the first thing I said about Progressive Christians and their belief system, as I have been able to understand it, has brought such a remark as “Obviously you think you have more of it than we do, but don’t seem interested in sharing much more other than to keep calling us wrong without any real evidence to back it up.”
I have made every effort to be as respectful as possible. Believe me when I tell you I can be much less respectful but you guys are like the “cool kids” in highschool, you cause me to want to fit in and be “popular” too, not a luxury I am willing to allow myself since I, like you, am interested in truth.
I’ll check out your blog, I like the name, I’m wondering if it is appropriate? (now, Brandon, that was sarcasm
)
The Crooked Saint said,
November 4, 2005 at 12:43 pm
Who in the world has claimed that cussing will remove salvation???
I believe her name is Ingrid Schlueter.
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 12:55 pm
Okie Dokie, I haven’t heard of Ingrid Schlueter, but I’ll tell you something, and maybe I do myself a diservice, at some point I will probably change this, but I made a decision some time ago that I do not want to spend too much time reading or listening to Conservative Christian commentators.
I don’t want to pollute myself with what a lot of other Conservative Christians believe, I want to draw my own conclusions. What I am focusing on right now is what “Progressive” Christians are saying rather than what “Conservative” Christians are saying. Oh, certainly, you cannot help but be effected in some ways but I want my opinions to be formed based on what I have experienced in these sorts of debates rather than what some Religious leader tells me.
At some point I may re-think that, but not right now. So, you all will have to bear with my ignorance of what other “Conservative” Christians are saying unless a big story breaks in the media, such as Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of Chavez. I’m speaking for MYSELF, none other.
Zeke said,
November 4, 2005 at 1:18 pm
Gosh, Jacke, where do I begin…
I’d hardly say I have kept “calling” all of you “wrong” and as far as backing anything up?
Well, here’s a couple of zingers from you:
Believe me when I tell you I can be much less respectful but you guys are like the “cool kids” in highschool, you cause me to want to fit in and be “popular” too
Geesh, how lucky for the rest of us that Progressive Christians have come along to set us free! Free at last, free at last…pass the doobie.
I’d like to get underneath where these kinds of comments are coming from. What makes you think we are like the “cool kids” from your high school? What makes you associate what’s been said on this blog with pot smoking?
And both of them seem to imply you are making us wrong in a way that I don’t even know how to respond to.
I can deal with having a discussion about Christian ethics. What I can’t relate to is the constant assertion and implication that we are just trying to be naughty and cool, and don’t have any interest in what the Bible says insofar as it contradicts some sin that we adore. In fact, I think you’ve made some assumptions about how I in particular and the rest of us view the inerrancy of Scripture. For the record, I believe that “all Scripture is God-breathed,” that everything that is in the Bible is what God intended to get in there. I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture! That doesn’t mean that I believe that we will always translate or interpret Scripture accurately even though we ask the Holy Spirit to help.
As for how I know the difference between right and wrong, I reason from Scripture and common sense and wisdom, as I hope you’ll see from my blog. And I provide generous allowances that others might not agree with me on everything, because I know that they like me are imperfect sinners.
As for your technique of praying for the Holy Spirit’s guidance and following your heart, just be careful. After all, Mormons ask their potential converts to “pray to God and ask if these things are true”. Plenty of people pray that prayer and then become Mormons. Benny Hinn professes to be pretty plugged into the Holy Spirit too.
Let’s keep this conversation going, but I’d appreciate it if you’d reexamine your assumptions.
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 1:41 pm
The cool kids in highschool remark was my personal impression, it has to do more with me than you. I see no need to qualify that. I’m sorry if you dislike my commentary, would you like it better if I wasn’t honest? Would you like me better if I just go with the flow of the group? Never say what’s on my mind? What I think? What do you want?
I was feeling silly when I said that about pass the doobie. I don’t associate what has been said on this blog with pot smoking, it was my attempt at a joke, I’ll try to keep my attempts at humor at a low roar in the future.
(geesh, I was enjoying the atmosphere here, I just didn’t understand all the rules yet).
It would be a good thing if ALL people reexamined their assumptions. You certainly are not claiming that you make no assumptions? Get real, Zeke, we all do, no matter how hard we try not to, and I do TRY not to make assumptions.
Are you discouraging prayer for guidance??? Lol. Please, I feel I have been patronized already by D, now you feel the need to warn me about my ability, or rather possible inability to discern? Puhlease! If this is going to be the tenor the first time I mention a dissenting opinion from the largely Progressive Christian community found on this blog… :::sigh:::
Now, in fairness, I understand that none of you know me very well at the moment, with that in mind, perhaps it would be nice if YOU, Zeke, would reexamine your assumptions about me.
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 1:52 pm
Zeke writes:
“For the record, I believe that “all Scripture is God-breathed,” that everything that is in the Bible is what God intended to get in there. I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture! That doesn’t mean that I believe that we will always translate or interpret Scripture accurately even though we ask the Holy Spirit to help.
As for how I know the difference between right and wrong, I reason from Scripture and common sense and wisdom, as I hope you’ll see from my blog. And I provide generous allowances that others might not agree with me on everything, because I know that they like me are imperfect sinners.”
That’s nice. I have been really frustrated in the past when discussing issues with self described “Progressive” Christians because many of them I have come across do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. How do you communicate with someone like that? I found that it is a useless endeavor.
What I think I dislike most is the lableling, in the first place. I don’t want to be labeled as a “Conservative” Christian, just Christian will do, and I disapprove of Progressive Christians new penchant to label themselves. There is already enough division among the Christian community without labeling ourselves politically.
Now, I’ll confess, I wanted to stir things up a little last night when I posted that. You all seemed a little bored.
The Crooked Saint said,
November 4, 2005 at 2:10 pm
Jacke. I doubt the labeling game started with Progressive Christians.
I think “Progressive Christians” may have taken on that term because the term “Liberal Christians” is a bit of a misnomer.
I don’t think Progressive is a political adjective either…I think it’s a theological one. Most progressive have a pretty firm, if not “traditional” theology when it comes to things like the Trinity, or Scripture’s inspiration, or salvation…it’s just that progressives tend to exercise a “loving patience” rather than heavy handed dogma.
The word liberal probably does refer to politics…but who knows at this point who labeled whom?
D said,
November 4, 2005 at 2:25 pm
Patronizing? What ever do you mean? I was just presenting evidence from my field that might explain how you felt (well, this is half a joke; I’m a mere junior in college).
Though, I am curious: if you felt that it was a struggle to cuss, then what was compelling you to try? After all, you would not know it was a struggle if you weren’t trying to in the first place…
…there was an interesting SCP podcast (follow Steve Chastain’s links) on Prayer fairly recently, might be worth a listen. I think the problem with prayer is that it can sometimes reduce God to a cosmic vending machine. Though that’s probably not what you had in mind.
…and for the record, I’d say the current mood is “whimsical.” Why else would you mention doobies and cool high school kids? Why else would I whine about being a psych major?
Let’s try not to kill the mood, eh? (this is directed at no one in particular, btw)
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 2:38 pm
Crooked Saint,
I wrote a blog on that once. If you are interested. It’s under the title:
A Progressive Christian’s Motto? “Judge Not Lest We Judge You for Judging”
The title alone should tell you a little about how I feel about this tit for tat ethical divide, but I’m not going to retell the whole thing, you can read it on my blog if you want.
And for clarification, last night when I posted (in part)on Brandon’s comment about the “Christian subculture”:
” I’ve been thinking about this whole “Christian subculture” thang.
It seems to me that could be used for a very convenient excuse for not listening to the Holy Spirit or your own conscience speaking to you.
It would be awfully easy to just tell yourself when you feel a pang of guilt about doing something, “awww, that’s not the Holy Spirit, that’s just that “Christian subculture.” Dang that “Christian subculture” anyway! Bunch of legalists they are!”
I meant that, By saying a moment ago that I was trying to stir things up because you all seemed bored I didn’t mean to suggest that I didn’t mean it, rather, when I posted it, I knew it would stir things up and I made the choice to post it anyway, partly for that reason.
I am not necessarily saying that everyone who comments on this blog uses the “Christian subculture” as an excuse but I am saying that it would be EASY to do so. If you want to disagree, that would be the place to begin the argument.
It did appear I was assuming at the end that people on this blog do that, that was sarcasm. I suppose I’ll have to attach an (S) for sarcasm or something so that I am not misunderstood in the future. I did attach a
, evidently it wasn’t sufficient.
Jacke said,
November 4, 2005 at 2:46 pm
D,
I expressed why I was struggling to cuss when I posted my story. ::sigh::
That’s okay, you are forgiven.
I was reacting to frustration over not knowing how to harness and use all the power I felt through my salvation. The joy was overwhelming and I had NO guidance and never dreamed of asking for it.
It was a different time than the times we are living in now. There was no “Youth Minister” at the church, there was no one working with kids on how to serve God, there was no discipleship training…nothing.
Maybe that’s why I work in the children’s ministry today, I’d never really thought about it, I just knew that’s where my heart was.
Oh, and Phhhhhhhbbbbbbbtttttthhhhhh! To you for the patronizing.
D said,
November 4, 2005 at 3:33 pm
Oh, heh, sorry. Completely missed that bit. This comments list is getting a bit messy (and I’m not helping).
…so in order to feel accepted, you felt you had to change who you were. I can see how that could cause problems. I suppose that whether it was spiritual or cultural is inconsequential; you felt what you felt, the why hardly matters.
I could ask why you didn’t just find people who’d accept you for who you were, but I think we both realize that that’s just bs fed by afterschool specials and the like, that those are awkward times that drive kids to do strange things.
…this is a curious path we’re travelling, I admit. Ninjanun’s “the Pete” goes so far as to suggest that everyone’s sa