10.28.05
Posted in faith at 10:21 am by
I’ve been in an ongoing conversation, sometimes with myself, sometimes with others, about the purpose and substantative value of going to church. (And, for the record, I’ll be carefully using the appropriate nomenclature for the “c”hurch vs. the “C”hurch, please interpret accordingly.)
Steve, from Stupid Church People, has been a formative and helpful voice in my continuing understanding of why church is or is not important for growing Christians. You can read more from him about his situation, but I’ll just say that his crisis of faith, and the honesty with which he shares from that crisis, has been a helpful sounding board by which I’ve grown. So, go read his blog.
Anyhow, I’ve been reflecting, recently, on church and why it’s important. You should know, I go to church. Regularly, even. I enjoy it, but that’s not why I go to church.
We don’t go to a particularly intellectually challenging church, but it is a place that seeks to be diverse and intentional about its place in the community. I like that, but that’s not why I go to church.
We have a sunday school class that meets each sunday morning, I find it more intellectually stimulating, but that’s not why I go to church.
The sunday morning worship is exciting, but that’s not why I go to church.
There’s a strong corpus of likeminded Christians that attend our church, but that’s not why I go to church.
Our church has the capacity to change me and make me a better person, and while that gets a little closer to the meat of the issue, that’s not why I go to church either.
There was a man, we’ll call him George, in my Sunday school class. He passed away last week. He was probably in his mid 70’s. George loved God, like really loved her. George had a passion for sharing the gospel–he had been a missionary before he retired. George was about as conservative as they come, politically…and probably theologically, too.
I go to church so that I can be a part of a community with people like George. His wisdom, his love of God, his devotion to bringing about the Kingdom of God on earth, they’re all things I desperately needed–and desperately need. I need to see and grow and be a part of a community of believers who are not just of like minds.
Of course, I could get that online. I could point to a plethora of sites that don’t share the same allegiances as I some to a small degree and others to a greater degree. However, calling these places community in most cases would be a stretch. Also, there are certain kinds, a certain specific demographic, of people who blog.
All that to say this: settling with being a part of the Church allows you to comfortably place yourself in communities wherein you can be lulled into a sense of happiness and contentment–happiness and contentment are much less likely in a church. Frankly, I think contentment is one of Satan’s (literal or figurative) biggest lies. As Christians, I hold that we’ve been called to be discontent creatures. Now, I think that our discontent should be a hopeful and joyful discontent, but it is a discontent with sin and division and hate, nonetheless.
George didn’t have a blog. I couldn’t just log in and get my daily dose of George. In order to be a part of George’s life, to be in community with George, I needed to go to church.
George is not an outliar. There are lots of Georges in lots of different churches. There are lots of things to like about the Georges there, and lots of things that will, rightly, drive you nuts about them–some will even hurt you deeply. But, in the end, if you’re satisfied to be a part of the Church without being a part of a church–you’ll miss out on some important stuff.
Not all churches bring us into community with Georges. The Baskin Robbins 31 flavours model isn’t particularly conducive to encouraging a variety of different opinions or viewpoints. We need places that both attract diverse audiences and seek to promote those audiences interaction with worship.
NOW…that’s not to say that there’s not a place for being outchurched, or out of fellowship. Please don’t hear me saying that EVERYONE needs to RIGHT THIS MINUTE head to their nearest church body and join up. There’s a place for healing, and there’s a place for renewal. Sometimes, we need the encouragement of like-minds to restore in us joy. Because, after all, discontentment alone is not effective. Disconentment without holy joyfulness isn’t probably leading one down the path of growth.
I’m not claiming to have all the answers, and I’m hoping that you–members of our online community (whom I value greatly)–will be helpful in offering your agreement or dissent on what I’ve written here.
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Posted in faith at 10:21 am by
I’ve been in an ongoing conversation, sometimes with myself, sometimes with others, about the purpose and substantative value of going to church. (And, for the record, I’ll be carefully using the appropriate nomenclature for the “c”hurch vs. the “C”hurch, please interpret accordingly.)
Steve, from Stupid Church People, has been a formative and helpful voice in my continuing understanding of why church is or is not important for growing Christians. You can read more from him about his situation, but I’ll just say that his crisis of faith, and the honesty with which he shares from that crisis, has been a helpful sounding board by which I’ve grown. So, go read his blog.
Anyhow, I’ve been reflecting, recently, on church and why it’s important. You should know, I go to church. Regularly, even. I enjoy it, but that’s not why I go to church.
We don’t go to a particularly intellectually challenging church, but it is a place that seeks to be diverse and intentional about its place in the community. I like that, but that’s not why I go to church.
We have a sunday school class that meets each sunday morning, I find it more intellectually stimulating, but that’s not why I go to church.
The sunday morning worship is exciting, but that’s not why I go to church.
There’s a strong corpus of likeminded Christians that attend our church, but that’s not why I go to church.
Our church has the capacity to change me and make me a better person, and while that gets a little closer to the meat of the issue, that’s not why I go to church either.
There was a man, we’ll call him George, in my Sunday school class. He passed away last week. He was probably in his mid 70’s. George loved God, like really loved her. George had a passion for sharing the gospel–he had been a missionary before he retired. George was about as conservative as they come, politically…and probably theologically, too.
I go to church so that I can be a part of a community with people like George. His wisdom, his love of God, his devotion to bringing about the Kingdom of God on earth, they’re all things I desperately needed–and desperately need. I need to see and grow and be a part of a community of believers who are not just of like minds.
Of course, I could get that online. I could point to a plethora of sites that don’t share the same allegiances as I some to a small degree and others to a greater degree. However, calling these places community in most cases would be a stretch. Also, there are certain kinds, a certain specific demographic, of people who blog.
All that to say this: settling with being a part of the Church allows you to comfortably place yourself in communities wherein you can be lulled into a sense of happiness and contentment–happiness and contentment are much less likely in a church. Frankly, I think contentment is one of Satan’s (literal or figurative) biggest lies. As Christians, I hold that we’ve been called to be discontent creatures. Now, I think that our discontent should be a hopeful and joyful discontent, but it is a discontent with sin and division and hate, nonetheless.
George didn’t have a blog. I couldn’t just log in and get my daily dose of George. In order to be a part of George’s life, to be in community with George, I needed to go to church.
George is not an outliar. There are lots of Georges in lots of different churches. There are lots of things to like about the Georges there, and lots of things that will, rightly, drive you nuts about them–some will even hurt you deeply. But, in the end, if you’re satisfied to be a part of the Church without being a part of a church–you’ll miss out on some important stuff.
Not all churches bring us into community with Georges. The Baskin Robbins 31 flavours model isn’t particularly conducive to encouraging a variety of different opinions or viewpoints. We need places that both attract diverse audiences and seek to promote those audiences interaction with worship.
NOW…that’s not to say that there’s not a place for being outchurched, or out of fellowship. Please don’t hear me saying that EVERYONE needs to RIGHT THIS MINUTE head to their nearest church body and join up. There’s a place for healing, and there’s a place for renewal. Sometimes, we need the encouragement of like-minds to restore in us joy. Because, after all, discontentment alone is not effective. Disconentment without holy joyfulness isn’t probably leading one down the path of growth.
I’m not claiming to have all the answers, and I’m hoping that you–members of our online community (whom I value greatly)–will be helpful in offering your agreement or dissent on what I’ve written here.
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The Crooked Saint said,
October 28, 2005 at 11:27 am
Pretty amazing, Brandon.
love of God, his devotion to bringing about the Kingdom of God on earth, they’re all things I desperately needed–and desperately need.
I think you hit the nail on the head right there. I’ve been burned by churches. I’ve wondered, at times, if my faith could survive in church…but now, after leaving, healing, and finding a good community of believers…I can see that I can move from the personal hurt onto the greater goal of “bringing about the Kingdom of God on earth.”
I read Steve’s blog…and his quote from Eugene Patterson…and I wish more churches could fess up to hurting people, fixing their crap, and focus on that goal as well.
I’m rambling. Thanks for the bit of encouragement. Thanks for showing that we can sometimes be dissenters and still value and involve ourselves in the Church and in church.
I know it’s cliche, but, that’s some of what Jesus was doing here on earth.
jvjannotti said,
October 28, 2005 at 1:04 pm
And let’s not forget that George needed you too.
Another beautiful job at addressing the purpose of Church.
SaltSliceWorldview should listen up.
ninjanun said,
October 28, 2005 at 1:04 pm
The church we used to be a part of had a George, a woman named Bev. She passed away a few years ago, and honestly, the church has done a good job since then of pushing away the older people, through the music, the messages, the general “focus” of where the ministries are directed, etc. Now, the eldest and most involved people, with the exception of 2 people, are all below the age of 50. The others voiced their concerns, along with some younger people, but were given lip service as the church went about its merry Willow Creek-like homogeneous way. Instead of honestly considering the alternate viewpoints, the pastor and the rest of the members seemed to sigh with relief (even tho’ they were sad those people left) that those who disagreed had left, so that they could now “do ministry unhindered.”
(sigh)
So place me squarely in the outchurched camp at the moment. I’m working through all the reasons why my husband and I are no longer in church, with the hope that we can fully heal and find a place where there are differing viewpoints, different people, and the love of Christ still covers all and allows space enough to strive for the Kingdom.
cr said,
October 28, 2005 at 1:33 pm
I get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure discontent is always helpful. I’ve abandoned my church after leaving pissed off (and not in a “pissed off for the Spirit” kinda way) for six months straight. I’m semi-liberal, and had trouble always being the source of dissension in the Sunday School, in the focus groups where they asked us how to make church better, and in “discussions” (read: monologues that were shot down, sometimes with hostility) with the pastor.
I fully believe in dialogue, and I fully believe that my ideas should be challenged and that I’ve grown a great deal from that in other arenas. But after continually being labeled a “problem” for espousing what I thought was right (you’ll have to pardon me if I don’t think that gospel music is somehow less holy than a more liturgical/traditional route), I found it hard to continue to speak up. I suppose you could argue that what I was a part of wasn’t really a dialogue at all, at least not in the Gadamer “fusion of horizons” sort of way. But does that really solve the problem?
So I haven’t been to church for months, which I guess makes me outchurched. Now the issue is what happens next. If I start attending a new church, I certainly won’t become a member anytime soon. This experience has made me (more) cynical, and I’m now looking for a church that gives to ME rather than simply asking what I can do for IT. Then I feel guilty for being a potential leech, which added to my skepticism makes for a bad community member all around….
jeff said,
October 28, 2005 at 2:12 pm
You know Brandon, I wish my church had a George. I find myself looking for someone like that to feed into my life.
I know my brother, with all his struggles at church, has a guy just like that who keeps him coming back… challenging him, discipling him…
Some weeks, I guess I go to church cuz I have to. I do the music. I married the pastor’s daughter. But I cannot say that there are many truly meaningful relationships there (some, but not many).
Since my church is a non-denominational church, I sometimes struggle with the TBN-ish approaches to theology and method.
So why do I go? I guess I’m still trying to figure that out (among many other things).
btw- I’m sure we do differ, to a small degree, in our allegiances. I think it’s just because I started the search later than you did. I’m struggling, but I’m getting there. Slow down, and I’ll catch up
jeff said,
October 28, 2005 at 2:16 pm
But, in the end, if you’re satisfied to be a part of the Church without being a part of a church–you’ll miss out on some important stuff.
Man! You just hit the longing of my heart! I just need to figure out what/where that important stuff is… (cuz I wonder if I’d miss anything if I missed ‘c’hurch)
ninjanun said,
October 28, 2005 at 2:54 pm
cr–I totally understand where you’re coming from! It gets exhausting to always BE the voice of dissent, and feel like you’re being a “problem” because you don’t agree with the way things are going. And the pastor isn’t really interested in having a dialogue, but instead wants a monologue where everyone responds by saying, “yes, I completely agree, let’s do things your way.”
And I understand your dilemna with being outchurched and being more on your guard if/when it comes to joining a new church. Right there with ya.
Fred La Plante said,
October 28, 2005 at 3:25 pm
Brandon, what is a pastor to do to create such an atmosphere as you are describing? There is so much pressure in our culture for “success”, whatever that is, that it is easy to get lost. Even Barna’s newest book, Revolutions, doesn’t really help. I do believe in the role of pastor, or I wouldn’t be one. But what needs to happen? It is such a struggle at times.
ninjanun said,
October 28, 2005 at 3:38 pm
Fred, Not to supplant any suggestions Brandon or others may make here, but there’s some good articles and discussion on such topics over at Steve Chastain’s blog and the Stupid Church People blog, both hyperlinked above.
Shteevie said,
October 28, 2005 at 5:10 pm
In one of his essays, Kurt Vonnegut - an atheist - says that one of the reasons Christianity thrives is its insistence on forming congregations. What church does, he says, is give its attendants and artificial extended family who share certain spiritual beliefs as a common bond.
This, in effect, is one of the greatest things religion does: offers a cure for loneliness.
Charles Schulz, the late creator of Peanuts, said that once a church becomes too large, it outgrows its usefulness. He says it’s best to keep church congregations fairly small so it feels more like a family and less like a big regional gathering of Rotarians. (That is a paraphrase.)
Personally, I’m a little suspicious of Christians who say they don’t need to go to church or they don’t like to socialize with other Christians. My experience has told me that much of the time, it’s because said Christian is living in sin - usually sexual - and doesn’t want to be convicted while they’re enjoying sin for a season.
The Bible tells us not to foresake meeting with each others. This verse, I believe, is incarnated in the modern church.
ninjanun said,
October 28, 2005 at 5:42 pm
Ahh, the old “christians who avoid church do so because they’re living in sin” logic.
Shteevie said,
October 28, 2005 at 6:26 pm
More experience than logic, I’m afraid. If you’re going to tell me that Christians who fall into sin are just as enthusiastic about going to church as they normally would be, I’m afraid I’d have to call you a liar.
Even in my own life, when I fall into sinful patterns, I stay away from church. When I’m reluctant to go to church, it’s a warning sign for me to examine my day-to-day living. I’ve found it to be a trend in my fellow believers as well.
Shteevie said,
October 28, 2005 at 6:45 pm
And BTW… you’re a better Josie than a vampire.
Brandon said,
October 28, 2005 at 7:10 pm
Well, first of all CR, I think that skeptics make the best community members of all.
Second, I think you’re right about there being a balance point for discontentment. When I refer to the concept of discontent, I’m meaning a situation where the body of Christ longs for more, better, more pure, more holy. So, don’t think of disconentment as the opposite of happiness, think of it as the opposite of laziness.
And, I think the joyfulness is a huge part of discontent. I think if people are robbing you of joy, it’s time to get out…fast.
ninjanun said,
October 28, 2005 at 8:09 pm
Thanks for the compliment…I think. Although since you’re comparing me with me, I’m not sure that it is.
But anyway, Shteevie, I’m not disagreeing with you. but the point of Brandon’s thread isn’t about Christians who avoid church because they’re living in sin. Your comment seemed to conclude that any christian who says they don’t like to go to church is only avoiding church so as not to be confronted with their sin. And while I cannot argue against your personal experiences with that, I would ask that you try not to pre-judge every christian and suspect them of living in sin because they avoid church.
Shteevie said,
October 28, 2005 at 8:14 pm
I don’t think that I was labelling all Christians who stop attending church as languishing in sin and, if I gave that impression, then I apologize.
I’ve left a few churches in my time, both liberal and conservative, and even in retrospect I’m still glad that I did so.
What I’m trying to say is that when a person leaves a church, it isn’t necessarily the fault of the pastor or the congregation. Sometimes the fault must lie with the former parishioner.
Shannon Brescher said,
October 28, 2005 at 8:14 pm
For me, church has always been about providing a safe space for people. Not a place that doesn’t challenge people, but a place where they know that they will be accepted and loved as people no matter what their opinion is or what they’ve done in the past. Because that’s what God does for us - that’s what I see grace as being all about. And if churches truly do extend grace to everyone, they build trust among congregants, keep them accountable (because they know that they can admit their mistakes to others), and draw newcomers in. At least, that’s why I know I ended up being involved in a group of Christians - because they provided that safe space.
amcorrea said,
October 28, 2005 at 9:04 pm
There are people who leave churches. Then there are the churches who leave people.
Without going into the gory details, my family and I have been abandoned by churches (from various denominations in various parts of the U.S.) time and again. Nobody expects a missionary’s life to be easy, but the constant betrayal gets to be a bit much. I’ve heard it all: from the-church-split-oops saga to the oh-what-we-*really*-meant-was… (This, after moving a family of seven halfway across the country.)
In my (admittedly subjective) experience, American Christianity is its own worst enemy–and the churches are even worse.
Those of you who have good church “homes”–congratulations. I truly hope it lasts.
Phil said,
October 28, 2005 at 11:13 pm
I don’t know how this fits in, if at all: but here it goes.
The thing that I am finding with churches is that churches continue to split off, then split off again and now people search for a church that “fits” them. People, at least in my region, have about 300 choices of churches where they find that they fit.
Has church become a place where people have to “fit in”?
churches should be a place of community where people are challenged in their faith, and called to put their faith into action by serving others.
If churchmembers find fault in the smallest of details they simply leave the community that they have been a part of, or hopefully they were a part of, to find a “new” church that fits them better.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel that finding a church to “fit” someone is something that needs to be looked at. People need to feel that they are connected in a church, but to continuously leave churches for another that might have a slightly different view of an issue seems to be a problem in my mind.
goingape said,
October 29, 2005 at 12:02 am
Yeah, we just joined a new small group. And I had these idealistic notions that small group would be all these young people near my age, professional, etc. that would give me something.
But our group isn’t. It’s us and three other people who are in some cases twice our age, really needy, etc etc. But you know, we’re staying. Because these are the community members in our suburb that are in our church. And no one said community was supposed to be about what it can give to me…
I realize now what a selfish hack I’ve been to expect that of a small group.
goingape said,
October 29, 2005 at 12:09 am
Oh, btw, just to justify what I”m saying about how hard this is going to be…our host has a Joel Osteen book prominently displayed on his coffee table, next to his Bible. He wears a shirt that has scripture and an eagle with an American flag motif…
They’re very “nice” people..but not exactly where it’s all daisies and happy flowers for me.
dorsey said,
October 29, 2005 at 12:34 am
Jeff mentioned my “George.” He’s 72 years old, a licensed minister with a degree from a very conservative bible college, and the most openminded sonofabitch I ever met.
He sits and nods as I rant about everything that’s wrong, and even fills in some of the blanks I miss. And then he opens scripture, shows me that I’m not wrong, and helps me explore ways to channel my rage into something loving, productive.
My God, what a lifeline that guy has been. I wish everyone had someone like that. Where would I have ever found that guy, except at my fucked-up church?
Zeke said,
October 29, 2005 at 11:11 am
At my church, we have a single mom who’s a professional singer, and all the trials and tribulations and failures that she’s experienced have made her one of the most patient, loving, passionate people that I know. She just radiates Jesus. She’s almost the only one I really feel gratified talking to, because I know I can be myself and I know this woman loves me.
Seven years in this church, and I can count on one hand the number of people that I’ve picked up the phone to call, and vice versa. And yeah… I know that’s my problem more than it’s my church’s problem.
Steve C said,
October 29, 2005 at 2:01 pm
The guy for me was at a previous church where I served on staff. His name was Norm.
Norm was older (about 25 years older than me) and we would play golf together about once a week with the music guy from the church. Norm would always play for money and always kick our ass.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say he radiated Jesus…but he was always positive, genuinely cared for us “young guys” and always left us smiling and laughing with one of his “dirty” jokes. And he was always avaible to serve and do what it took around the church to make things happen.
Need a Sunday school teacher to fill in… go get Norm. Need to help setup chairs outside… hey Norm. The youth group needs a prop built for a production… Norm’s the guy to do it. He could and would do anything for anyone….. literally.
Norm got colon cancer about two years after I met him and he battled that bastard. We would go golfing with him toting a colostomy bag and he would still be smoking his smelly cigars and kicking our asses (and gladly taking our money).
When Norm died, a part of our church died that day. And for me, it was so hard to part with this man who had become a beacon of hope and radiated so much life into our lives.
Heidi said,
October 30, 2005 at 12:16 pm
It’s interesting, because I don’t really disagree with anything that’s been said here about reasons to go to church, but I haven’t been to church in two years.
People warned me that I wouldn’t have an opportunity to “serve the Church” if I wasn’t in A church, but funny thing, I found that sometimes I could do it better when I wasn’t so tied to one church. I had a girls small group with a single mom, a girl on welfare from an abusive background, a good Presbyterian girl, and a wavering Orthodox girl - all different churches (or none at all), different situations, but eager to seek Christ. Was this not “serving the church” because they didn’t all go to one church?
I have a couple of people like “George” in my life. There’s my friend, I’ll call her Sue, who is a royal pain in the ass sometimes, and I know I am to her too. But she always points me to Christ, she lives what’s important, and she’s brave about speaking about what she sees of Jesus in her life. I didn’t find her in church…but she fills the role of the person who is so different from me sometimes it makes us both want to scream. We almost lost our friendship earlier this year because it’s just plain HARD to be in relationship with someone who’s “not like you”, but we pushed through it to the other side into a sweeter fellowship than I know with many of my “likeminded” friends.
I could go on and on about people like Sue…and I didn’t find any of these people in church. I found them by living a life in the real world and refusing to surround myself with people just like me.
At the same time, I hunger for community, a steady group of people that are there for one another. I just have never, ever experienced this in church, despite the fact that I’ve been to some “great” churches. What I long for doesn’t seem to exist, at least not yet.
Kent said,
October 30, 2005 at 7:01 pm
Brandon:
I had read Steve’s post on SCP and followed it to read the interview with Peterson. I loved it so much I had to print it out and share it with my offline community. What an excellent discussion!
I was pleasantly surprised by your post on the subject. Given your habit of general orneryness, it wasn’t the response I expected. I especially appreciated your comments about “discontentment, with holy joyfulness”, …reminds me of C.S.Lewis’ discussions about “longing” as an essential part of our nature. If we are discontented with this world it must be because we were made for a better one.
After being through many church and denominational changes over the years, one that stands out to me was a time in a small church (less than 50 people) where we came from a wide variety of social, political, and economic backgrounds. The pastor couldn’t string two coherent words together in a sermon, but it was the most amazing time of spiritual growth for all of us. I believe it was because our first comittment was to Christ and His kingdom, and then to each other, come what may. There were certainly some tough times, but it taught me soooo much of what church is about.
Jesus asks us to love our enemies so much we would die for them. With that as the standard, is it too much to ask us to hang in there with other believers, even when their faith is so shallow that they hurt us, when they are seduced by the world in ways that seem so utterly corrupt.
If we are to love our enemies into the Kingdom, how much more should we love those within the kingdom until we all see the truth.
Jacke said,
October 30, 2005 at 10:49 pm
Hi all.
I left a church about 3 months ago and am already a member and serving in a new church. I still have doubts about whether I should be a member of the new church or not. My heart is still drawn toward my old church, but, you see, my old church is still there but it is not the same church.
Imagine deacons standing and screaming “boo” “boo” at the top of their lungs during the ugliest business meeting you could imagine. Imagine the church voting to keep our old Pastor, then him resigning three days later because of the stress the struggle had put on he and his wife. Imagine members “high fiving” each other because they had succeeded at ridding the church of its Pastor and then replacing him within three months time with a new Pastor who just happened to have served with the music minister for 20 plus years before he came to that church.
I am disillusioned, to say the least, but when I go to the new church, which has a heart for children, the ministry in which my husband and I had served in the old church, I am often reminded in the new faces of those new children what it is all about. It isn’t about me. It’s about what I can do to help those children along the way.
The only time I find myself in losing myself seems to be when I am teaching and working with those children.
It makes me sad that I feel so, and I’m not sure I can explain it, I don’t know, like one moment I am into it and the next I’m wondering if I moved too soon. Sometimes I think maybe I should just chuck it all and take a break and seek God on my own, other times I wonder if I would without the church, does that make any sense? My husband felt strongly about joining so I let him make the call and I don’t regret letting him make the call, actually, it’s what I fall back on. He has a great spiritual intuition about these things. I’m just trying to trust his intuition and believing it will work out for the best.
We were members of our old church for almost 8 years. Of course, we had many brothers and sisters there who we loved and continue to love. It hurts.
Jacke said,
October 30, 2005 at 11:16 pm
Also, being the sorry, self-absorbed person that I am, I failed to tell you that I am sorry for your loss of “George,” Brandon. I thank you for sharing what you shared, it really spoke to my heart and you have me crying. Did you intend to have that effect?
Truth sometimes hits us in funny ways, doesn’t it? Thank you for bringing some raw emotion to the forefront of my heart, because, you see, I just haven’t really been able to deal with it yet, not in an emotional way, at least.
Bless you.
Reub said,
October 31, 2005 at 2:39 pm
Hello,
First of all, I find this Blog extremely insightful. Thanks to the person who created it.
I stopped going to Church physically about a year ago but mentally and spiritually, I have not been there for more than 3 or 4 years.
Jacke, in your 1st story about the pastor being forced out, then resigning, people booing and high fiving each other, hits so close to home with me.
About 5 years ago when I was an active Christian at my home Church in Alabama, we had an amazing Preacher who, I believe to this day, is one of the most inspiring and intellectual preachers I have ever heard. Plus, he was very effective in bringing many people to Church quite simply because, his sermons were a gift from God and you left always wanting more. Truly inspiring and motivating.
Well, as you know all good things come to an end at some point in time.
Some of our old and decrepit Elders began fearing that this Preacher was gaining too much authority or power or whatever and began slowly edging him out without telling anyone. It was disagreements about business related issues within the Church that started all of it. It evolved into a nasty Church drama.
Imagine this: these Elders actually fired this man and had no intention of bringing it before the Church for discussion. They did not consult with the Church members at all! They actually tried to fool the congregation into believing that he had resigned and that they had hired someone new and everything would be fine and dandy. Of course, the night this happened (Wednesday night service), our fired Preacher, whom so many people loved (and still do) stood up to plead his case before the Church and lo’ and behold, the Elders jumped up and tried to silence him and make him leave! It goes without saying that many, many Church members stood up as well and stopped the Elders from doing this (myself included) and continued to let our Preacher plead his case and explain what happened. It was such an ugly and emotionally scarring moment, I’ve never healed from it. And, this is only one of my “bad” experiences with my Church as well as others. The preacher they replaced him with is a “great guy” but a bumbling idiot in the pulpit with nothing remotely interesting or inspiring to say. This kind of nonsense goes on ALL of the time in Churches across this country and it’s a huge reason people stop attending Church. I know another couple who experienced the same thing I did and are still jaded but at least, have found another Church.
Politics, power and greed affect every aspect of our lives, and it’s very sad that some Churches adopt these characteristics without even knowing it.
It’s not my lack of Faith in God or Jesus. Trust me: I believe. It’s just that, I don’t see the Church as having much relevance in my life right now, especially if this kind of senseless crap is consistently going on. It makes a mockery out of God. This is one of my #1 reasons for not attending.
Please understand, Christ has the utmost relevance in my life and I’m trying my best to follow Him and truly “know” Him on my own path, separate from the guilt, politics, power and unrealistic ideals that exist within the social framework of the Church (I’m not insinuating every Church is like this).
If you can connect with people at a Church and you’re truly inspired to be there, then that’s great and I think you should let as many people know about it as you can. I hope to find it someday.
Jacke said,
October 31, 2005 at 3:49 pm
Reub,
If I didn’t know better, I would have thought you were a member of my church.
Our deacons, too, tried to fire our Pastor, then tried to convince that he had resigned by presenting a letter to all members. The problem was, it was coerced. None in attendance at the time that letter was signed supported the Pastor. He was, I believe, under great pressure to sign it. We ended up voting to bring it to a vote, there was much “gnashing of teeth” at the time.
But the vote came through for the Pastor to stay. He was elderly, yes, and perhaps it might have been time for him to go, but the way it was done was just not the way Christians should treat a man who had served the Lord for so many years. In my heart of hearts I believe that he should have been treated more compassionately and allowed to retire when he felt the Lord’s prompting to do so, in other words, in God’s time.
It broke his heart.
I know, because I keep in touch with him by phone that he is still struggling to overcome the bitter feelings it produced in him. That is so sad. We are powerless except for the most powerful thing of all, prayer.
But, you are right, whatever church you attend there will be people like that. I’m not sure I will ever be able to look at people in the church the same again. When the very deacons of the church have displayed such viciousness, those you thought were doing their all to serve God, and who “supposedly” were to example the love of Christ in their lives for the rest of us…well…that, after all, is the human condition, isn’t it?
Stephen said,
October 31, 2005 at 4:26 pm
I have not attended a church regularly for about four years, and I long for it every day.
At first, it was because I was getting my Master’s in a small, predominantly Catholic town. I don’t have anything against Catholic services, in fact, I attended one congregation’s Bible studies fairly regularly during this time, but it didn’t really fit.
The times that I tried to attend (and still try to attend) churches, I became frustrated by a couple connected things that seem to be problems in almost any exclusively, college town.
1) The church was too big and/or concert oriented to gain any real edification, other than those made available to those who love praise choruses. The kids love going to hold their hands up and meet their friends, but there was a sharp absence of people who were not 18-21 or not married w/ kids.
2) A strong “us vs. them” relationship to the university. I understand that many churches are concerned with the goings-on at secular universities and their faculty, but I actually sat stunned when I went to a service and heard the pastor say, “Next week we will be going to that god-less campus and reaching out to all of those condemned faculty and staff.” I thought that I might be at some sort of off-shoot church. So, I attended the “progressive” non-denom. church, and they were much nicer but expressed a similar desire to found a reading-circle to recorrect some errors regarding “evolution” “feminism” “postmodernism” and “the theories of Marx.”
I literally have found that I am unwanted by churches. When I first attend churches, I make it a point to go up to the pastor and introduce myself. This inevitably leads to me being asked what I do. I answer that I teach at the university, and everything changes. I am given one last chance to recant by being asked, “Oh, you must be very active with Campus Crusade, InterVarsity, or the Campus Republicans?” When I answer no, then I am told to have a nice week.
I know that I have overly-high expectations for my perfect chruch, but I would settle for a place where I was not preached against from the pulpit because of my occupation.
Dave said,
November 1, 2005 at 8:55 pm
Brandon, I think you hit the nail on the head. Great post, sir.
It sounds like a lot of folks who have posted have been seriously burned by church. I am sorry. I am a pastor, and I’ve seen my share of ugliness. I think it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer who said that the church is not an ideal community, but is the ultimate battleground between God and the forces of darkness.
I think, though, that what Brandon points out is an important piece of our picture of church. Diversity of backgrounds and opinion can be a source of spiritual growth, instead of spiritual dystopia. When people are willing to submit themselves to learn something from folks they think they have nothing to learn from, they occasionally find deep wells of wisdom.
For those of you who have been burned, I do hope you are able to find some Georges. Don’t stop looking.