10.26.05
Posted in faith at 10:12 am by
A new-ish (to me at least) reader made some good comments about altar calls and their ilk. Much of it was dissent–and a good dissent at that. I appreciate such perspectives. Here’s my response:
Jacke,
Thanks for your input! I have a few thoughts in response to your posts. See below:
I don’t run to the alter at the drop of a hat, rather the Holy Spirit pulls me there, as a matter of fact, His pull has been so strong at times I thought I might pass out if I DIDN’T go.
I think, and I can only speak out of my personal experience here, that many times the ‘call of the holy spirit’ is pretty darn hard to distinguish from the social conformity pressure of doing what’s expected. The pressure of doing the good thing.
Worship is a state of mind.
Perhaps, but it’s also an action. An action that requires careful calculation and thought into its motives.
I don’t really understand how you could view an alter call as divisive. Scratching my head over that a little, but your blog is a refreshing change of pace because I’m with you, the Body of Christ should be unifying rather than splitting off into little groups of politically associated schizms. I’m just not sure in the current climate that that is even possible, has it ever been possible?
In answer to your question, no, it’s never been possible. However, that should ABSOLUTELY be no excuse not to try to bridge the schizims. Let me put it to you this way. If the Kingdom of God (eternal) has no division between members of the body of Christ, isn’t that how we should be trying to live in the here and now…in the Kingdom of God (present)? I think it is.
I think you might be reaching a little to assume that those “jelly fish” down front are as concerned about your “bad Christianess” as you seem to be about a divide they never even considered might exist. I don’t personally think when they are praying they are talking to God about those heathen in the back who refuse to go to the alter. Geesh, maybe I’ll ask some of those “jellyfish” about that sometime.
They may not be concerned with my ‘bad Christian-ness’. That’s not really the issue. The point is, we’re all equally in need of God. Why should there be a formal act of worship that invites some, and not others, to pray or to recieve some ‘hard-to-define’ sort of blessing? Isn’t that what we all came to Church for in the first place? The whole idea is that we come, in corporate worship, together to approach the throne of God and to be changed by the experience–ALL of us…not just the ones who conform to the socially accepted act of coming down front.
Could it be that those who go to the altar (see I spelled it right this time, I CAN learn) are those same less reserved people you meet at the office? The ones more likely to tell you about their private lives, while inside you are rolling your eyes thinking “way too much information?” Some people find it easier to display emotion than others, that doesn’t make them better or worse, does it?
Absolutely not. I’m simply arguing that the altar call divides the Church unnecessarily.
Jacke, I appreciate your perspective. I think you do raise a valid point that it may not be the people themselves up front that are the problem. Often, these folks really do want ‘a spiritual experience’ or somesuch…and, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Also, I’d say that an altar call that is a community act of lifting up some believers, or a welcoming into community of some believers is a great thing. (Yes, my ’satan’s happy when there are altar calls’ phrase was hyperbole.) A few of you have emailed some powerful stories of just this kind of alter-altar call.
Unfortunately, in AmeriChurch (Trademark, all rights reserved) culture–this isn’t always the case. Altar calls seem, all to often (and particularly in the context of youth rallies, etc) to be individualistic displays of holiness. The irony is that the altar call has used the pressure of social norms of individualism to shape its practice.
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Posted in faith at 10:12 am by
A new-ish (to me at least) reader made some good comments about altar calls and their ilk. Much of it was dissent–and a good dissent at that. I appreciate such perspectives. Here’s my response:
Jacke,
Thanks for your input! I have a few thoughts in response to your posts. See below:
I don’t run to the alter at the drop of a hat, rather the Holy Spirit pulls me there, as a matter of fact, His pull has been so strong at times I thought I might pass out if I DIDN’T go.
I think, and I can only speak out of my personal experience here, that many times the ‘call of the holy spirit’ is pretty darn hard to distinguish from the social conformity pressure of doing what’s expected. The pressure of doing the good thing.
Worship is a state of mind.
Perhaps, but it’s also an action. An action that requires careful calculation and thought into its motives.
I don’t really understand how you could view an alter call as divisive. Scratching my head over that a little, but your blog is a refreshing change of pace because I’m with you, the Body of Christ should be unifying rather than splitting off into little groups of politically associated schizms. I’m just not sure in the current climate that that is even possible, has it ever been possible?
In answer to your question, no, it’s never been possible. However, that should ABSOLUTELY be no excuse not to try to bridge the schizims. Let me put it to you this way. If the Kingdom of God (eternal) has no division between members of the body of Christ, isn’t that how we should be trying to live in the here and now…in the Kingdom of God (present)? I think it is.
I think you might be reaching a little to assume that those “jelly fish” down front are as concerned about your “bad Christianess” as you seem to be about a divide they never even considered might exist. I don’t personally think when they are praying they are talking to God about those heathen in the back who refuse to go to the alter. Geesh, maybe I’ll ask some of those “jellyfish” about that sometime.
They may not be concerned with my ‘bad Christian-ness’. That’s not really the issue. The point is, we’re all equally in need of God. Why should there be a formal act of worship that invites some, and not others, to pray or to recieve some ‘hard-to-define’ sort of blessing? Isn’t that what we all came to Church for in the first place? The whole idea is that we come, in corporate worship, together to approach the throne of God and to be changed by the experience–ALL of us…not just the ones who conform to the socially accepted act of coming down front.
Could it be that those who go to the altar (see I spelled it right this time, I CAN learn) are those same less reserved people you meet at the office? The ones more likely to tell you about their private lives, while inside you are rolling your eyes thinking “way too much information?” Some people find it easier to display emotion than others, that doesn’t make them better or worse, does it?
Absolutely not. I’m simply arguing that the altar call divides the Church unnecessarily.
Jacke, I appreciate your perspective. I think you do raise a valid point that it may not be the people themselves up front that are the problem. Often, these folks really do want ‘a spiritual experience’ or somesuch…and, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Also, I’d say that an altar call that is a community act of lifting up some believers, or a welcoming into community of some believers is a great thing. (Yes, my ’satan’s happy when there are altar calls’ phrase was hyperbole.) A few of you have emailed some powerful stories of just this kind of alter-altar call.
Unfortunately, in AmeriChurch (Trademark, all rights reserved) culture–this isn’t always the case. Altar calls seem, all to often (and particularly in the context of youth rallies, etc) to be individualistic displays of holiness. The irony is that the altar call has used the pressure of social norms of individualism to shape its practice.
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dorsey said,
October 26, 2005 at 10:44 am
“… it may not be the people themselves up front that are the problem.”
Absolutely.
I’ve often said that I find it hard to blame sheep for being where the shepherd has led them. Jesus took it easy on the people who only knew what they had been told. But He got seriously pissed at the people who ought to have known better.
Likewise, I’m more inclined to aim my truck at the lazy bastard who’s getting paid to interpret scripture critically, but instead spouts the status quo.
jeff said,
October 26, 2005 at 11:00 am
Unfortunately, in AmeriChurch (Trademark, all rights reserved) culture–this isn’t always the case. Altar calls seem, all to often (and particularly in the context of youth rallies, etc) to be individualistic displays of holiness. The irony is that the altar call has used the pressure of social norms of individualism to shape its practice.
Yeah!! That’s it!! I mean, is the person who comes to the altar to ‘receive Christ as their personal saviour’ (if you ascribe to that sort of thing) any more ’saved’ than the person who stayed in their seat and prayed the same ’sinners prayer’… and meant it, but didn’t get the welcome pack, or the pat on the back, or whatever?
While I have had altar calls when I have spoken in church, they are usually more about the entire church focusing on and praying for a need, than they are about come forward and be/look spiritual… and now you’ve got me even rethinking that!!!
For me, the danger you speak of is more about the encouragement to perform our spiritual acts before men, in the name of ‘boldness’ or ‘testimony’.
Brandon said,
October 26, 2005 at 11:22 am
And, tis’ a good day indeed when you’ve got the Marshall brothers on your team.
The Crooked Saint said,
October 26, 2005 at 12:21 pm
How do we view all this with the knowledge that John the Baptist made a living doing altar calls? Or When the apostles would cry out “Repent and be Baptized” ??
I understand, and agree, where you’re coming from with this juiced up, emotional high, come forward or be scorned stuff.
But I’m still having a hard time getting on board with altar calls being “individualistic displays of holiness.”
I believe it’s very pressure oriented…but more from the “be one of us” angle and not a “be only yourself.”
The message may be “you and Jesus” but the act, seems to be “you and your relationship to ‘us’ “
Does that make sense?
Brandon said,
October 26, 2005 at 12:40 pm
Indeed it does, crooked. And, in a wierd way, “you and your relationship to us” might not be a bad reason to act.
Unfortunately, so often, that relationship to a community isn’t about a joint relationship with God as it is about being a social club with a ‘holier than thou’ sort of moral code.
And, like I said, it’s an odd paradox this Individual display of holiness. Odd, because the individual display is often done as a part of a collective effort of social pressure. When individuals just conform to what’s right, they’re being individualistic…except by definition they’re not…because they’re conforming.
I think public statements of faith shouldn’t be ‘you and Jesus’ statements at all. Nor should they be ‘you and your relationship to us’ statements.
Rather, I think a public statement of faith should be a statement of:
“you and your relationship/role to/with us as our community seeks to serve and have a relationship with God.”
However, in the AmeriChurch, these public statements are rarely so.
The Crooked Saint said,
October 26, 2005 at 12:57 pm
Rather, I think a public statement of faith should be a statement of:
“you and your relationship/role to/with us as our community seeks to serve and have a relationship with God.”
I agree. I also think that should immediately be followed by a statement from the church stating pretty much the same thing…Right? Kind of like baptism. The congregation pledges to be a part of the child’s life.
If someone is making a public profession of my faith (traditional CRC style) I would like to think the congregation should make a pledge to be there for that person…under the umbrella of being God’s Community.
Not sure how popular the Belgic Confession is ’round here…but I think it’s pretty clear in there that the Church needs to be rock solid in it’s commitment to God…but also to itself as a body.
My main problem with altar calls is that once you’ve climaxed and smoked your cigarette…you roll over and fall asleep, while someone else lies there wanting to be held.
Brandon said,
October 26, 2005 at 1:23 pm
While my minor caveat to this is that I would say that it’s true of SOME altar calls, I completely agree. That’s why it chaps my ass so much that I can remember the Banner (the official magazine of the CRC, for the uninitiated) actually printed numbers of kids that came forward at convention.
Success at ministry isn’t a numbers game. Period. Never has been, never will be. Jesus would’ve preached to an empty mount if no one would’ve turned out to hear him. It just so happened people came.
This is turning into less of a comment and more of a post, so I’ll save the rest for later. Thanks for your thoughts, Crooked. Oh, and the wonderful analogy.
Jamey said,
October 26, 2005 at 5:30 pm
I’ve been quietly enjoying the great debate, however I’m in agreement that altar calls are a load of “holier than thou” B.S. I don’t think public declaration of faith are neccessary at all, ever.
Just out of curiousity, since I haven’t seen it here, but shouldn’t scripture actually be a consideration in church when they come up with this mambo-jahambo. I’m pretty sure in the book of Matthew that Jesus taught of praying in “secret”, and not so that others may see you.
Just my take on it.
jeff said,
October 26, 2005 at 6:00 pm
After spending the day thinking about this blog, I came to another conclusion.
There have been times when the altar was, in fact, a very humbling experience. These times were not the times when I was the one ‘ministering’. After all, the times I conducted an altar call was as much for the benefit of my personal ego addiction as it was for those who desired to be ‘closer to God’ or something…
Yet, there have been genuine times, too. Like the times when I was in the congregation, and the last thing I wanted to do was go forward for prayer or whatever. I wanted those around me to be impressed with my spirituality, and the altar would be a show of my personal struggle and imperfection.
Could I have gotten things straight standing there at my seat? Of course! But my pride would still be in tact… is that what God was trying to accomplish in me? Help me change some areas in my life without inconveniencing me or making me lay down my prideful, christianese facade of perfection?
Okay, I’m vascillating. But, while the altar call may be self serving and feeding into the approval-desires of the ministers, there are times (for me, at least) where I have benefitted from a public admission of my shortcomings & weaknesses…
Is it all necessary? I’m not sure. I’ve just found some of the more genuine experiences to be somewhat humbling, especially given my penchant to want to portray my faultlessness.
Jacke said,
October 27, 2005 at 11:32 am
Certainly, Brandon, there is the pull of the Preacher who is Preaching and one must use his or her own judgement about the reasons one might feel pulled to the altar. There are, also, as you said, different types of altar calls.
I won’t try to address you point by point but I’ll make one observation that differs drastically from the consensus of you and your readers.
I get the impression that the commenters here are all in agreement that going down to the altar gives the appearance that those people are, or think they are, “holier” than those who do not.
As I stated before, I don’t like to go to the altar, maybe if I thought it made me look holier I wouldn’t have such a reluctance, then again, I really don’t go to Church to make people think I’m “holy,” at all. I go to learn and grow, I go to fellowship with other believers AND, of course, I go to worship God. I also serve in a couple of capacities at my Church.
I feel just the opposite of what I see being expressed by your readers, however. When I go to the altar, the one fear or dread I have is that people will think I am LESS holy than they thought I WAS. Standing in the pew, to me, shows that my relationship with God doesn’t need repair, that it’s in good standing. Going to the altar means something is troubling me, I have a problem, I haven’t been being obedient, I don’t know what God’s will is. All those things, to me, go against what you and others here seem to think that those “jelly fish” think of themselves.
Responding to an altar call is not required and I guess I don’t understand why it is such an issue with you. If it is divisive, it seems to me you are making it divisive, it never even occurred to me that an altar call was divisive. That is a totally foreign idea to me.
Altar calls come at the end of the service, I suppose you could strategically position yourself to leave when they start the altar call if it bothers you so much? What’s the alternative? To do away with the altar call, all together? That doesn’t seem right to me, especially considering I didn’t even know it was an issue of such *magnitude,* :0, until yesterday.
There must be some sort of organization in Churches, there must be some sort of “bare bones” that leaves room for the Spirit to work and move, to me, this level of minute dissection of the service is divisive, itself. Like the committee who argues over the color of the new carpet, or the color of paint to apply to the walls, these are necessary but not very spiritual debates. Sometimes it is best to let those in staff positions make these sort of decisions, I don’t personally want to spend my time at Church worrying over such details. I want my focus to be upon aligning my own spirit with God’s Spirit and renewing my mind.
Oh, and don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that YOU aren’t very spiritual. As I said, you’re an interesting character. I, too, greatly enjoyed such an off the wall (to me) perspective that I’d never, before, considered. I find I learn much more in discussion with those with whom I disagree than those in an “amen choir” somewhere. That’s why I came across you while I was out trolling around in the wee hours of the morning yesterday.
Sorry, I really didn’t start out to write a book, I meant to keep it short and simple.
P.S. Jeff’s reply immediately above this one was a much better reply than my own. People know when one is being real or if one is just being cerebral. Jeff was being real.
catholic_girl said,
October 27, 2005 at 11:49 am
I responded to an altar call at a Christian youth conference when I was about 15 — because I wanted to meet the hot musician… Come to think of it, I think most of the respondents that day were girls who wanted to meet the hot musician. Todd something. (I was already a Christian at the time, as was pretty much everybody at the Christian youth conference.)
My experience in the Catholic Church was very different. When one makes a public declaration of faith by getting baptized or confirmed as an adult in that denomination, it’s a process that takes months or even years and requires a lot of thought and prayer beforehand. They go to great lengths to make sure it’s not just a “heat of the moment” thing. I like that system better.
Jacke said,
October 27, 2005 at 12:25 pm
So, did you meet the musician?
jvjannotti said,
October 27, 2005 at 1:51 pm
I’ve witnessed and participated in hundreds, no, better make that tens of altar calls. Not once, not one single time, from either side of it, have I experienced an altar call that was not coercive or manipulative in some way.
Pressure is applied, sometimes mightily. I’m speaking only about altar calls where people are exhorted to come forward as a way of confessing Christ as personal savior. Which is what I think you were referring to Brandon, correct?
The church as a community has much better practices: baptism and communion, in which people can make a profession of faith. These are designed as acts of the community. Altar calls are designed to be personal. That’ not necessarily bad, but it is inadequate.
Incidentally, John the Baptist didn’t do altar calls, he baptized. There is, in fact, a world of difference. Paul at Pentecost didn’t even do an altar call, though he did urge repentence on his hearers. The Holy Spirit took it from there.
But Jesus, who never did an altar call either as far as we know, did mandate baptism and communion.
Do we need altar calls at all? I’d say no.
Brandon said,
October 27, 2005 at 2:46 pm
Nicely put, Jim. I agree.
dorsey said,
October 28, 2005 at 8:41 am
No real point here, but a quick anecdote:
I once went to hear Mike Warnke speak. Does anyone remember him? He made his mark as the guy who had been a Hight Priest in the Church of Satan—an evil warlock who later came to Christ (after a couple decades of making a good living from this farce, he confessed that he had made the whole thing up).
Anyway, I was at this service where he spoke, and when he gave the altar call, a few people came up, but apparently not enough to suit him. So he began to imply, then actually state that the Holy Spirit was revealing to him the identities of all the people in the auditorium who needed to come up for salvation. “If you don’t get down here in the next 2 minutes, I’m going to come up there and get you!” he shouted to the crowd. I guess I was OK, because the Holy Ghost apparently never mentioned my name to him. Actually, he never came for anyone, so it must have worked. Everyone was saved. PTL.