04.15.05

a fine dissent

Posted in life at 11:25 am by

I got a comment a while back. It was, once again, about my virtual mouth. This response, though, was different. I really believe that the writer of this comment had at empathy rather than condemnation at the cutting edge of her or his thoughts. Indeed, I think it is an example of a kindly offered dissent.

Now, I roundly disagree with some of the points raised (and my comments are interspersed with our commenter’s thoughts) but the viewpoint was ethically shared–and that, I appreciate.

Here it is (albeit an edited version), for your reading pleasure:

You said that words were very important to you. That is good to hear you say that. I believe they are too.If I understand the Bible, it says that Jesus was God’s word. So words seem to be extremely important. And anyone who has read the Bible must surely understand that the story of Jesus is the most important story in the Bible. One of the responses to your blog mentioned the fact that Jesus might have cussed at the moneychangers. I don’t know if he did or not , but I believe He was mad enough. What He did say was probably not pleasant. I also think that whatever He said in anger was directed specifically at someone and not just at things in general. But, I don’t know of any other time Jesus was this angry. I think I remember reading about times when He rebuked people, but I wouldn’t say that He cursed them.

In reading your blog it seems that your cursing is not directed at anyone in particular or even said in anger so you wonder, where is the harm. You sound like a good hearted individual with a great deal of intelligence so I hope you would consider this.

I would tend to agree that any words Jesus shared with the moneychangers were probably not rosy ones. And, I also agree that we don’t know for sure that Jesus ever used words that would’ve been considered to be vulgar in Aramaic. Thus, I’m not about to make an argument from silence; frankly, it probably wouldn’t be that helpful.

I’m not sure I understand your argument here, though, about me and my virtual potty mouth. Are you saying there is an ethic of vulgarity and that ethic is anger? I think that I’ll keep reading to better understand your point before commenting further…

Most of the words that our society considers cuss words describe something negative, and most of them have to do with bodily functions. While bodily functions are a normal fact of life, the products of our bodily functions are mostly negative, such as urine and feces. And lengthy or repeated discussions about bodily funtions are considered by most people to be immature. Just think of all the jokes we laughed at as kids that had something to do with farts, or shit, or sex. In no way am I trying to say that you are immature, but I do believe that the words that a person uses, says a lot about that person. It sounds like you use cuss words because of the shock that it probably gets from many closed minded christians. Perhaps it’s your way of rebelling against this closed mindedness that causes stagnation in many churches. You use the words fuck, damn, shit, ass,piss,etc. Most of them have only one meaning, and that meaning has probably been the same for a long time, even if the words are derived from other older languages. Shit and damn are two words that I know of only one meaning for. To damn someone or something is to wish bad things on someone or something. And most of the time the word is used in anger. Even if it is not used in anger, it still is used to describe something in a negative way. Bible quoters will tell you that a good christian should be positive in there speech and demeanor, not negative. Bible quoters bore me but they do have a good point on the positive speech part. If I am a christian, and I am supposed to tell others about Jesus I think I should use mostly positive words.

Meaning, my friend, is a rather malleable construct. (See this post for a further discussion of meaning in the context of semantics.

Also, if I follow your logic, you are arguing that to share the good news you cannot engage in negative speech. My response: but what about truth? What is true? For the years of modernity, the Church has continuously spit out the lie that once you become a Christian, all the crap associated with the day to day grind with melt away. Well, that’s just not true. Are Christians to simply remain ignorant of the shadows, to forget about life’s gray areas?

I think, though, that you have something there about positive words. Christians should sharing positive words. Christians should be sending a message of redemption, of renewal, of new life through Christ. I just don’t see how they can do that without bracing the topic of darkness, without knowing the dark? In fact, I would argue that there’s nothing particularly negative about words commonly concieved as vulgar–we’ve got much bigger words to worry about.

If I am around other christians, even ones that cuss, I prefer to be around the christians who don’t use so many negative words. Shit is the other word that seems to have only one meaning, and it is definitely not a positive one. The word shit is also often used in anger or to wish something bad on someone. Like “shit on you.”

It seems the word fuck might have several meanings in todays culture and one of the meanings could be positive. If fuck means having consentual sex and the matter of pregnancy and disease is considered, then that’s gotta be a positive. But as with damn and shit, fuck can be used to wish something bad on someone. “Fuck you” is often said in extreme anger. The person saying “fuck you” usually means that they wish you to have unconsentual sex because unconsentual sex is not a good thing. It is sometimes considered rape. So if I hear some say “fuck you”, then I assume they are meaning “rape you.” The word fuck can also be used to describe some people. Someone can be called a “dumb fuck” or a “dumb fucker” (both negative things). Someone can be a “fuckhead” which is the same as an “asshole”. Someone can be a “motherfucker” and this does not mean they are having sex with a mother.

And, this is exactly why I try not to derogate other human beings with my words. I’m pretty sure there’s a post in my back issues dedicated to this very topic…hang on…here it is.

As I said earlier, the words a person uses says alot about that person. People who use alot of negative words sometimes come across as angry or rebellious. Anger and rebellion are not necessarily negative. They can motivate good hearted people to change things. But I believe that anger and rebellion can be expressed in words that are not swear words. The swear words usually come out of a person when their emotions are controlling their mouth. Their reasoning is being overcome by their emotion and that emotion is almost always anger. Anger is usually accompanied by bitterness and bitterness makes for a lousy christian.

The cussing you do seems to say you might be somewhat irritated not
angry. Or that you cuss because its your way of rebelling against the
closed minded christians you have met. There are plenty of those.

So, is anger acceptable or not. You say it’s okay, but in the same paragraph you’ve got anger as a causal snowball rolling down the hill of bitterness, and slipping and sliding on down that slippery slope to the valley of the lousy Christian. If you’re really arguing that anger is bad, I couldn’t disagree more, and a whole Old Testament full of prophets agrees with me.

You’re making a common misconception, I think, here. It’s the old Anger = Evil argument. I prefer to think of what you describe not as Anger, but rather as discontentment. Perhaps often, even ‘Holy Discontent.’ I’d like to think that discontent is quite a telling mark of grace. (And, here I can think of four or so Irishmen in a little rock band based in Dublin who agree with me.)

All I am trying to say is that most of our swear words imply something negative and that just seems to go against the “good news” in the Bible.

Those closed minded people are not going to read your blog if they see all those cuss words and they just might be the ones who should read your blog. If cussing is your thing then I say go for it. Just remember the power that words can wield.

In all honesty, I don’t care if fundagelicals don’t get much out of this blog. A writer must find their voice, and I’m on the path to finding mine. I can’t say for sure that my path will never be to speak to the greater fundagelical Christian community, but I can say for right now that my path doesn’t really seem to be heading in that direction.

My voice is to speak to the disenchanted, the disheartened, and the hurt. I just can’t go changing that voice, because some fundagelicals don’t like it. How much more dishonest would it be for me to write with a voice that was not my own?

However, you’ve written out of empathy. And, you’ve expressed a desire for the greater community of the ‘frozen chosen’ to participate in a sort of ‘dethawing’ process. You seem to have the heart to see that community come alive. I humbly suggest that it your critique would best be turned inward toward yourself. Not because you swear, or have a potty mouth; I don’t condemn you, at all. That is not my intent. Rather, I think you have a heart for good. Perhaps it’s time to find your own voice? I think it’s needed.

But, I’m afraid I’m not the voice you’re looking for.

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a fine dissent

Posted in life at 11:25 am by

I got a comment a while back. It was, once again, about my virtual mouth. This response, though, was different. I really believe that the writer of this comment had at empathy rather than condemnation at the cutting edge of her or his thoughts. Indeed, I think it is an example of a kindly offered dissent.

Now, I roundly disagree with some of the points raised (and my comments are interspersed with our commenter’s thoughts) but the viewpoint was ethically shared–and that, I appreciate.

Here it is (albeit an edited version), for your reading pleasure:

You said that words were very important to you. That is good to hear you say that. I believe they are too.If I understand the Bible, it says that Jesus was God’s word. So words seem to be extremely important. And anyone who has read the Bible must surely understand that the story of Jesus is the most important story in the Bible. One of the responses to your blog mentioned the fact that Jesus might have cussed at the moneychangers. I don’t know if he did or not , but I believe He was mad enough. What He did say was probably not pleasant. I also think that whatever He said in anger was directed specifically at someone and not just at things in general. But, I don’t know of any other time Jesus was this angry. I think I remember reading about times when He rebuked people, but I wouldn’t say that He cursed them.

In reading your blog it seems that your cursing is not directed at anyone in particular or even said in anger so you wonder, where is the harm. You sound like a good hearted individual with a great deal of intelligence so I hope you would consider this.

I would tend to agree that any words Jesus shared with the moneychangers were probably not rosy ones. And, I also agree that we don’t know for sure that Jesus ever used words that would’ve been considered to be vulgar in Aramaic. Thus, I’m not about to make an argument from silence; frankly, it probably wouldn’t be that helpful.

I’m not sure I understand your argument here, though, about me and my virtual potty mouth. Are you saying there is an ethic of vulgarity and that ethic is anger? I think that I’ll keep reading to better understand your point before commenting further…

Most of the words that our society considers cuss words describe something negative, and most of them have to do with bodily functions. While bodily functions are a normal fact of life, the products of our bodily functions are mostly negative, such as urine and feces. And lengthy or repeated discussions about bodily funtions are considered by most people to be immature. Just think of all the jokes we laughed at as kids that had something to do with farts, or shit, or sex. In no way am I trying to say that you are immature, but I do believe that the words that a person uses, says a lot about that person. It sounds like you use cuss words because of the shock that it probably gets from many closed minded christians. Perhaps it’s your way of rebelling against this closed mindedness that causes stagnation in many churches. You use the words fuck, damn, shit, ass,piss,etc. Most of them have only one meaning, and that meaning has probably been the same for a long time, even if the words are derived from other older languages. Shit and damn are two words that I know of only one meaning for. To damn someone or something is to wish bad things on someone or something. And most of the time the word is used in anger. Even if it is not used in anger, it still is used to describe something in a negative way. Bible quoters will tell you that a good christian should be positive in there speech and demeanor, not negative. Bible quoters bore me but they do have a good point on the positive speech part. If I am a christian, and I am supposed to tell others about Jesus I think I should use mostly positive words.

Meaning, my friend, is a rather malleable construct. (See this post for a further discussion of meaning in the context of semantics.

Also, if I follow your logic, you are arguing that to share the good news you cannot engage in negative speech. My response: but what about truth? What is true? For the years of modernity, the Church has continuously spit out the lie that once you become a Christian, all the crap associated with the day to day grind with melt away. Well, that’s just not true. Are Christians to simply remain ignorant of the shadows, to forget about life’s gray areas?

I think, though, that you have something there about positive words. Christians should sharing positive words. Christians should be sending a message of redemption, of renewal, of new life through Christ. I just don’t see how they can do that without bracing the topic of darkness, without knowing the dark? In fact, I would argue that there’s nothing particularly negative about words commonly concieved as vulgar–we’ve got much bigger words to worry about.

If I am around other christians, even ones that cuss, I prefer to be around the christians who don’t use so many negative words. Shit is the other word that seems to have only one meaning, and it is definitely not a positive one. The word shit is also often used in anger or to wish something bad on someone. Like “shit on you.”

It seems the word fuck might have several meanings in todays culture and one of the meanings could be positive. If fuck means having consentual sex and the matter of pregnancy and disease is considered, then that’s gotta be a positive. But as with damn and shit, fuck can be used to wish something bad on someone. “Fuck you” is often said in extreme anger. The person saying “fuck you” usually means that they wish you to have unconsentual sex because unconsentual sex is not a good thing. It is sometimes considered rape. So if I hear some say “fuck you”, then I assume they are meaning “rape you.” The word fuck can also be used to describe some people. Someone can be called a “dumb fuck” or a “dumb fucker” (both negative things). Someone can be a “fuckhead” which is the same as an “asshole”. Someone can be a “motherfucker” and this does not mean they are having sex with a mother.

And, this is exactly why I try not to derogate other human beings with my words. I’m pretty sure there’s a post in my back issues dedicated to this very topic…hang on…here it is.

As I said earlier, the words a person uses says alot about that person. People who use alot of negative words sometimes come across as angry or rebellious. Anger and rebellion are not necessarily negative. They can motivate good hearted people to change things. But I believe that anger and rebellion can be expressed in words that are not swear words. The swear words usually come out of a person when their emotions are controlling their mouth. Their reasoning is being overcome by their emotion and that emotion is almost always anger. Anger is usually accompanied by bitterness and bitterness makes for a lousy christian.

The cussing you do seems to say you might be somewhat irritated not
angry. Or that you cuss because its your way of rebelling against the
closed minded christians you have met. There are plenty of those.

So, is anger acceptable or not. You say it’s okay, but in the same paragraph you’ve got anger as a causal snowball rolling down the hill of bitterness, and slipping and sliding on down that slippery slope to the valley of the lousy Christian. If you’re really arguing that anger is bad, I couldn’t disagree more, and a whole Old Testament full of prophets agrees with me.

You’re making a common misconception, I think, here. It’s the old Anger = Evil argument. I prefer to think of what you describe not as Anger, but rather as discontentment. Perhaps often, even ‘Holy Discontent.’ I’d like to think that discontent is quite a telling mark of grace. (And, here I can think of four or so Irishmen in a little rock band based in Dublin who agree with me.)

All I am trying to say is that most of our swear words imply something negative and that just seems to go against the “good news” in the Bible.

Those closed minded people are not going to read your blog if they see all those cuss words and they just might be the ones who should read your blog. If cussing is your thing then I say go for it. Just remember the power that words can wield.

In all honesty, I don’t care if fundagelicals don’t get much out of this blog. A writer must find their voice, and I’m on the path to finding mine. I can’t say for sure that my path will never be to speak to the greater fundagelical Christian community, but I can say for right now that my path doesn’t really seem to be heading in that direction.

My voice is to speak to the disenchanted, the disheartened, and the hurt. I just can’t go changing that voice, because some fundagelicals don’t like it. How much more dishonest would it be for me to write with a voice that was not my own?

However, you’ve written out of empathy. And, you’ve expressed a desire for the greater community of the ‘frozen chosen’ to participate in a sort of ‘dethawing’ process. You seem to have the heart to see that community come alive. I humbly suggest that it your critique would best be turned inward toward yourself. Not because you swear, or have a potty mouth; I don’t condemn you, at all. That is not my intent. Rather, I think you have a heart for good. Perhaps it’s time to find your own voice? I think it’s needed.

But, I’m afraid I’m not the voice you’re looking for.

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