12.18.04
Posted in faith at 4:44 pm by
In my comments section Degustibus has been questioning the notion of having bars fulfill the role of churches. She brings up some interesting points about why a bar should not be treated as a religious community. Most of those arguments surround the idea that having a religious community meeting in any place other than a Church will lead to new age gaia sorts of worship.
My question, and my thinking on this has been influenced by my blog-friend Greg, is how is that different than what happens IN many churches. I don’t think it is. Many churches strive to emphasize the health and wealth gospel of Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Robert Tilton, and the like. Those churches certainly aren’t communities of faith built on integrity.
She rather shares a suggestion that anyone concerned with personal salvation wouldn’t be caught dead discussing that issue in a bar. I disagree, on two counts. First, I think that discussions of personal salvation and sharing that message, albeit through mediums uncommon, happens the BEST in places OTHER than churches. Second, I disagree with the inference that sharing personal salvational accounts are the purpose of the Church. This is a 20th century idea that I believe has gotten way too much exposure and has fed into the health and wealth gospel. The purpose of church is to be the kingdom of God on earth.
So, with that stated purpose, why should that kingdom meet in a sanctuary. The concept of church being ‘that place you go’ has, in my opinion gotten Christianity into a whole heap of trouble. I think church isn’t that place you go, it’s everyplace you go. I’m not officially part of a church right now, but I am part of the Church right now. In my mind, the latter is much more important than the former. My work as a Christian never ends, even if I’m not a member of a local church.
My frustration is quite simply with the idea that churches aren’t doing what they should. They’re no longer driven by a purpose. They’re not really even communities in any traditional sense of the word. Holler you may about small groups, etc, but churches are failing. No. Not every church, not in every case. But, at an alarming rate churches fall short.
Some folks may not like my suggestion of churches being superceded in community by bars. I’m sorry. But, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go out and work to change those organizations (churches) that make members of the Church (catholic style) not want to be a part of them. If you’re doing that, and you want to critique my suggestion that faith communities are superceded by the local watering hole, well, then you’ve got some ground to stand on.
My thoughts about churches and bars aren’t because I want to drink beer at church. They’re not because I want to ‘de-holy’ church, (Lord knows, churches have done a damn fine job of ‘de-holying’ themselves.) I just want some of the magic, some of the community, some of the spiritual growth, that I’ve experienced at the bar to rub off on the Church.
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Posted in faith at 4:44 pm by
In my comments section Degustibus has been questioning the notion of having bars fulfill the role of churches. She brings up some interesting points about why a bar should not be treated as a religious community. Most of those arguments surround the idea that having a religious community meeting in any place other than a Church will lead to new age gaia sorts of worship.
My question, and my thinking on this has been influenced by my blog-friend Greg, is how is that different than what happens IN many churches. I don’t think it is. Many churches strive to emphasize the health and wealth gospel of Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Robert Tilton, and the like. Those churches certainly aren’t communities of faith built on integrity.
She rather shares a suggestion that anyone concerned with personal salvation wouldn’t be caught dead discussing that issue in a bar. I disagree, on two counts. First, I think that discussions of personal salvation and sharing that message, albeit through mediums uncommon, happens the BEST in places OTHER than churches. Second, I disagree with the inference that sharing personal salvational accounts are the purpose of the Church. This is a 20th century idea that I believe has gotten way too much exposure and has fed into the health and wealth gospel. The purpose of church is to be the kingdom of God on earth.
So, with that stated purpose, why should that kingdom meet in a sanctuary. The concept of church being ‘that place you go’ has, in my opinion gotten Christianity into a whole heap of trouble. I think church isn’t that place you go, it’s everyplace you go. I’m not officially part of a church right now, but I am part of the Church right now. In my mind, the latter is much more important than the former. My work as a Christian never ends, even if I’m not a member of a local church.
My frustration is quite simply with the idea that churches aren’t doing what they should. They’re no longer driven by a purpose. They’re not really even communities in any traditional sense of the word. Holler you may about small groups, etc, but churches are failing. No. Not every church, not in every case. But, at an alarming rate churches fall short.
Some folks may not like my suggestion of churches being superceded in community by bars. I’m sorry. But, if you don’t like it, perhaps you should go out and work to change those organizations (churches) that make members of the Church (catholic style) not want to be a part of them. If you’re doing that, and you want to critique my suggestion that faith communities are superceded by the local watering hole, well, then you’ve got some ground to stand on.
My thoughts about churches and bars aren’t because I want to drink beer at church. They’re not because I want to ‘de-holy’ church, (Lord knows, churches have done a damn fine job of ‘de-holying’ themselves.) I just want some of the magic, some of the community, some of the spiritual growth, that I’ve experienced at the bar to rub off on the Church.
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Kari said,
December 18, 2004 at 8:25 pm
Boo-yah. That is all.
Matt said,
December 18, 2004 at 8:34 pm
I think there is an added level of ecomonics that should play into those decisions. We should be asking where our money goes when we invest in our places of worship. I think that a faith community should invest in homes in a neighborhood and meet in those homes. This creates spaces for worship and community, but also provides for families 24/7. Beyond that, I think we should invest in positive local businesses (coffee shops, bookstores, etc.) I think that bars could be an okay place, but I think their impact on a community is not very positive. I prefer soda.
Brandon said,
December 18, 2004 at 10:09 pm
Thanks, Kari and Matt.
I appreciate your comments, Matt. I agree that in some cases, the impact of alcohol on a community isolates (or should isolate) certain community members. That doesn’t work for an inclusive church community.
Sans the alcohol factor of bars, I think that bars are a wonderful addition to a community. Unfortunately, in some cases they can be a hinderance. My question then, is what is that magical thing that makes a bar such a wonderful place of community and conversation. I cannot believe that it’s only the alcohol talking.
That’s my unanswered question: What makes the magic?
sleepwalker said,
December 18, 2004 at 11:00 pm
Have you read Paul Proctor? He has helped me to understand why I have been uncomfortable with mega churches and their teachings.
greg said,
December 18, 2004 at 11:33 pm
Brandon,
Thanks for the plug. I’ve said more than enough about this subject on the blog. Suffice it to say, we have Theology on Tap twice a month…at a bar where Guiness is served on tap.
The Krow said,
December 19, 2004 at 9:05 am
A friend of mine and I a couple years back we’re working ot start a church on our university campus in the pub. I think to me one of the factors that makes a bar, or evena coffee shop a good environment is it’s far less threatening to the outside world, and it’s alot less formal. Now there are churches that are anything but formal but still the stigma is there. I’m not anti-mega church, or organized church I just question authenticity of the worship and attendants (I hate the word members).
Matt I like your thought on economics… seems to me a socialist view of the church, actually using the money for community purpose instead of expensive buildings and paying salaries. Good thoughts, I’d love to hear more sometime.
little more than a placeholder said,
December 20, 2004 at 2:21 pm
Fading Notions of Community
To continue the ongoing discussion with Brandon, it’s quickly apparent that we could easily be criticised for trying to cling…
catholic_girl said,
December 29, 2004 at 9:48 pm
Amen, Brandon. Great post. And I, like Greg, get a lot out of the Theology on Tap events held frequently in my area. To be honest, it’s at those events and other happy-hour-type get-togethers that I’ve been able to really connect with other Christians in ways that Sunday Mass just doesn’t allow for. I’m a big fan of members of the Church working and playing together outside of “the church.” The bonds we form in that downtime can strengthen us to do the work God is calling us to — I’ve seen that in my own life.