12.17.04
Posted in faith at 1:39 pm by
These thoughts come largely in response to James’ question and post about the nature of the church experience. It should be noted that I rather enjoy trading posts back and forth like this when neither James nor I is trying to prove the other wrong. Rather his thoughts at Little More than a Placeholder have really helped me to think through both the nature of church and how I see its problems manifesting themselves. James is a great thinker/writer so if you haven’t linked him already, I would do so post haste.
I think both James and I–and correct me if I’m wrong here, James–have been put off by the fact that it feels like we both find community more forthcoming at places of meeting other than churches. At least here in Grand Rapids (and probably this is a true phenomena more places in the US.) James commented that he has felt the most community at a local coffee house. Partially, he hypothesizes that the addition of wireless to more communities of business has increased the amount of time that regulars tend to spend in these places.
I think it makes sense to expand that operationalization into a broader concept. We feel community in those places where we spend time. Perhaps, that means I should simply spend more time in the church, then I would feel more a part of that community. All told, I agree that this is one of the areas where churches have really missed the boat. Early church members spent much of their free time together, in physical proximity. The advent of the automobile has allowed us to live further away from our communities of faith. That is a truly unfortunate, but not insurmountable, obstacle to the growth of a faith community. James deals nicely with that topic.
Another issue, aside from time spent in physical proximity, is size. I believe, strongly, that the mega-church has lost the ability to be a church, in any traditional sense of the word. I’d love to be proven wrong about this, if anyone can give me an example of a ‘mega-church’ that does church right (in the sense of being able to provide any semblance of an interactive community) I’d love to hear about it. Large churches lack the ablility for people to really know eachother. Also, the way most churches in the US have gotten large is by peddling a message of cheap grace, wealth, and happiness. A message my blog-friend Greg describes as the ‘cracker-ass, suburban cult of self.’ I love that description, not only because I think it’s humorous, but also, I find it accurate.
Finally, though this isn’t probably the final issue, I think churches have stopped being communities of purpose. Every Rick Warren fan on the planet is sputtering to comment now. They’ll say, “But, Rick Warren tells us that God loves us and we have a purpose, so of course churches have a purpose.” Well, harumphf. Rick Warren’s idea of people having a purpose is making sure that churches have a steady flow of people who believe that it’s God’s explicit purpose to make them happy, healthy, wealthy, and wise. The other purpose is making sure the church is full on Sunday morning. That is, a successful church with a purpose is a big church. I think that this is bull shit.
A community of Christian purpose is a community that is intentional about moving the kingdom forward. A community that wants to end pain and hurt and suffering for the least of these is a community of faithful purpose. Rick Warren (and many others) try to teach us that being a community of faithful purpose means that we peddle our gospel of wealth and prosperity to the masses. Unfortunately, this false message cannot a purpose-driven community of faith make.
James finishes his post with a question. He’s just not sure where to go from where he’s at. I don’t have an answer to that question, and I have a question of my own: If we’re to effect change in the Church, where should the locus of control lie? Internally or externally? And, to that question, I do not have an answer either.
ADDENDUM: You all should really also check out what Streak has to say at his blog on this topic.
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Posted in faith at 1:39 pm by
These thoughts come largely in response to James’ question and post about the nature of the church experience. It should be noted that I rather enjoy trading posts back and forth like this when neither James nor I is trying to prove the other wrong. Rather his thoughts at Little More than a Placeholder have really helped me to think through both the nature of church and how I see its problems manifesting themselves. James is a great thinker/writer so if you haven’t linked him already, I would do so post haste.
I think both James and I–and correct me if I’m wrong here, James–have been put off by the fact that it feels like we both find community more forthcoming at places of meeting other than churches. At least here in Grand Rapids (and probably this is a true phenomena more places in the US.) James commented that he has felt the most community at a local coffee house. Partially, he hypothesizes that the addition of wireless to more communities of business has increased the amount of time that regulars tend to spend in these places.
I think it makes sense to expand that operationalization into a broader concept. We feel community in those places where we spend time. Perhaps, that means I should simply spend more time in the church, then I would feel more a part of that community. All told, I agree that this is one of the areas where churches have really missed the boat. Early church members spent much of their free time together, in physical proximity. The advent of the automobile has allowed us to live further away from our communities of faith. That is a truly unfortunate, but not insurmountable, obstacle to the growth of a faith community. James deals nicely with that topic.
Another issue, aside from time spent in physical proximity, is size. I believe, strongly, that the mega-church has lost the ability to be a church, in any traditional sense of the word. I’d love to be proven wrong about this, if anyone can give me an example of a ‘mega-church’ that does church right (in the sense of being able to provide any semblance of an interactive community) I’d love to hear about it. Large churches lack the ablility for people to really know eachother. Also, the way most churches in the US have gotten large is by peddling a message of cheap grace, wealth, and happiness. A message my blog-friend Greg describes as the ‘cracker-ass, suburban cult of self.’ I love that description, not only because I think it’s humorous, but also, I find it accurate.
Finally, though this isn’t probably the final issue, I think churches have stopped being communities of purpose. Every Rick Warren fan on the planet is sputtering to comment now. They’ll say, “But, Rick Warren tells us that God loves us and we have a purpose, so of course churches have a purpose.” Well, harumphf. Rick Warren’s idea of people having a purpose is making sure that churches have a steady flow of people who believe that it’s God’s explicit purpose to make them happy, healthy, wealthy, and wise. The other purpose is making sure the church is full on Sunday morning. That is, a successful church with a purpose is a big church. I think that this is bull shit.
A community of Christian purpose is a community that is intentional about moving the kingdom forward. A community that wants to end pain and hurt and suffering for the least of these is a community of faithful purpose. Rick Warren (and many others) try to teach us that being a community of faithful purpose means that we peddle our gospel of wealth and prosperity to the masses. Unfortunately, this false message cannot a purpose-driven community of faith make.
James finishes his post with a question. He’s just not sure where to go from where he’s at. I don’t have an answer to that question, and I have a question of my own: If we’re to effect change in the Church, where should the locus of control lie? Internally or externally? And, to that question, I do not have an answer either.
ADDENDUM: You all should really also check out what Streak has to say at his blog on this topic.
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Bill Creswell said,
December 17, 2004 at 6:24 pm
As a member of a Mega Church for a long time, my perspective may be different. Having attended www.calvary-church.net for 40 of my 39 years, I am fairly well known.
Community for a Mega Church is established in smaller groups. I belong to the Step-By-Step Class, a “community” of people that deal with blended family issues. I also am part of the “choir”, which forms it’s own “community”. Relationships also form among the other volunteer opportunities in teaching, ushering, children’s ministries.
The Mars Hill (www.mhbcmi.org) church has smaller “congregations” that meet in peoples houses.
It can be more challenging to reach out to people in a MegaChurch, but there is the opportunity to find many smaller groups, and meet people of the same or different viewpoints, whatever your preference. Classes come in all sizes and segregations, some by Bible study focus, some by family focus, some by needs focus.
The Krow said,
December 17, 2004 at 8:03 pm
Fantastic discussion on Rick Warren, health and wealth teachings, and churches. Churches above all shoudl be community, deep rooted relationships with each other, sharing resources in order to make sure no one goes without. Well my expereinces in churches has been anything but this, even in small rural communities (so they call themselves). I think you hit a godo point mentioning that community develops where we spend most of our time. I guess for me it’s the local poetry house, and at work… I’m as guilty as the rest. Maybe, jsut maybe if i start hanging out at church, then others would join in
Brandon said,
December 17, 2004 at 8:13 pm
I appreciate both of your comments. Bill, I’m especially glad you’ve found a home in a big church. I’m not convinced of Mars Hill’s effectiveness. I live in Grand Rapids and I’ve heard far too many stories of disconnect from former and current parishoners.
Thanks, both, for stopping by!
Streak said,
December 18, 2004 at 11:15 am
Great point about community, and I love the comment about Rick Warren. I feel like I have been under a rock–I didn’t even hear about this book until last fall. But I have friends who tell me I need to be involved in a church. I ask why, and they say because you should be involved in a church. That doesn’t strike me as community, nor a compelling reason to get up on Sunday mornings.
Bill Creswell said,
December 20, 2004 at 8:14 am
Thanks Brandon!
I know of those who have found a home at Mars Hill also, although many similarly to my experience were there at the startup, and it is a daughter church of Calvary.
I think what make any bar, coffee house or church a community is people. I have never been made to feel particularly welcome walking into a new coffeehouse. The community sense really comes from friendly people, and “commodity” which I think is in short supply.
242 said,
April 18, 2005 at 12:41 am
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