12.14.04
Posted in culture at 10:52 am by
I think it can be broken down to this: Progressive and liberal Christians want to have conservative Christians to say to them, “I respect your viewpoints, and I maintain that there is a place for you within Orthodox Christianity.”
I think that’s it. Simple, eh? Then we want to be treated like those conservative Christians believe what they say. That’s it. I don’t need conservative Christians to quit being conservative. I just want to be a part of the ‘Christian’ club sometimes…or at least treated like I’m a welcome member.
Beyond that, arguing till we’re blue in the face is pretty fun, sometimes. I don’t mind having a discussion about evolution, or gay marriage, or whatever the issue of the day is as long as we can come back to that one unifying principle. That my social and political beliefs don’t negate for me the possibility of fellowship with people.
Of course, this principle goes both ways. I just haven’t bumped into too many progressives that would claim that conservative Christians weren’t really Christians at all.
I think it might come down to doing critiques of the worldviews of opposing parties. I mean, we seem to expect everyone to have a worldview with no inherent flaws in it. Logical inconsistency is the bane of our existence. That’s true for most folks. In fact, I’d dare to say that there’s not a person alive with a completely coherent worldview. Why, then, do we act with shock and dismay when people point out logical flaws in our worldviews? Worse yet, that shock and dismay turns into a belligerent bickering about how we must be right after all.
Why not take those inconsistencies in stride? That’s really all I want for Christmas to take the inconsistencies in my world view in stride–and for others to follow suit. That and peace on earth.
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Posted in culture at 10:52 am by
I think it can be broken down to this: Progressive and liberal Christians want to have conservative Christians to say to them, “I respect your viewpoints, and I maintain that there is a place for you within Orthodox Christianity.”
I think that’s it. Simple, eh? Then we want to be treated like those conservative Christians believe what they say. That’s it. I don’t need conservative Christians to quit being conservative. I just want to be a part of the ‘Christian’ club sometimes…or at least treated like I’m a welcome member.
Beyond that, arguing till we’re blue in the face is pretty fun, sometimes. I don’t mind having a discussion about evolution, or gay marriage, or whatever the issue of the day is as long as we can come back to that one unifying principle. That my social and political beliefs don’t negate for me the possibility of fellowship with people.
Of course, this principle goes both ways. I just haven’t bumped into too many progressives that would claim that conservative Christians weren’t really Christians at all.
I think it might come down to doing critiques of the worldviews of opposing parties. I mean, we seem to expect everyone to have a worldview with no inherent flaws in it. Logical inconsistency is the bane of our existence. That’s true for most folks. In fact, I’d dare to say that there’s not a person alive with a completely coherent worldview. Why, then, do we act with shock and dismay when people point out logical flaws in our worldviews? Worse yet, that shock and dismay turns into a belligerent bickering about how we must be right after all.
Why not take those inconsistencies in stride? That’s really all I want for Christmas to take the inconsistencies in my world view in stride–and for others to follow suit. That and peace on earth.
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jpe said,
December 14, 2004 at 11:55 am
What do you think of the reframing tactic, arguing that True Christians ™ aren’t real christians? I’ve gone back and forth on it, and I think there are reasonable grounds for it, but I’m hung up on whether it’s….well, too obnoxious, I guess.
On the one hand, it does seem to strike against the core of progressive christianity (even though I do think there are grounds to distinguish an open-minded willingness to accept different theologies from the refusal to sanction certain hubristically wrong approaches, the subtleties of that argument gets lost in late-nite bull sessions, which is where I find myself engaging in the topic most often); but on the other hand, it may shock the True Christian ™ into realizing that not everyone thinks that their version of christianity is so apodictically clear that it can only be denied from stubborness or selfishness or whatever.
Brandon said,
December 14, 2004 at 12:16 pm
I don’t know, JPE. I guess my knee jerk reaction is that only the fringe True Christian ™ will respond positively to the shock of being called an ‘un-real’ Christian. Most will just call you a heretic.
I think you may just have to define ‘real-Christian’ very well before unrolling this tactic. I don’t know.
Help me better understand what you mean by ‘real-Christian’ versus True Christian ™. I think I know, but help me make sure I’m right.
Lara said,
December 14, 2004 at 12:25 pm
If you/’progressive christians’ didn’t want ‘conversative christians’ to be less liberal, then what would even be the point of those late night discussions/arguments? Don’t we discuss things to try to make ourselves understood and make our point of view seem like the most logical one?
Of course none of this means we all can’t be in the family of God.
Brandon said,
December 14, 2004 at 12:38 pm
I’m not sure I understand, Lara. Perhaps, ‘conservative christians to be less conservative’ is what you meant, I’ll operate on that assumption.
The point of those late night discussions would be to wax and wane on the things that make the world go ’round. As it stands, the point of those conversations is to prove or disprove one’s credentials as a Christian…I think that’s the wrong motive.
But, it’s only my opinion.
Resident Atheist said,
December 14, 2004 at 1:40 pm
I don’t much care what people think of my beliefs or lack thereof, but along the lines of your post, I would really like people to stop framing civil discourse as “the culture war”. I see this phrase more often from conservative sources, but it has its proponents among liberals as well. It used to be inaccurate, although I think it’s becoming an accurate description now that it’s so popular, but it doesn’t help us at all.
Brandon said,
December 14, 2004 at 1:44 pm
That’s a good point, RA.
rick said,
December 14, 2004 at 2:15 pm
Hey brother, great post. Thanks, I struggle with the very issues you mentioned. I recently commented about how I feel like an outsider at church, and I am going to be a priest! It is sort of like Goldilocks. Too conservative here… to liberal there… just give me an “untouchable” to whom I can share God’s love.
Great post!
Peace,
Rick
Lara said,
December 14, 2004 at 2:28 pm
Sorry, yes…I seem unable to edit comments once they’ve posted. I did mean ‘conservative become less conservative”.
And I agree with you on what those conversations *should* be about….the understanding must go both ways though. It’s a tough road to travel.
hynes said,
December 14, 2004 at 2:38 pm
I’m a Christian, conservative, and occasionally swear. Yes, it is fucking possible.
Brandon said,
December 14, 2004 at 3:18 pm
My point, Hynesic, is that Christian conservatives sometimes construct in their minds the false reality that they are an island in a sea of liberalism. Perhaps that’s true in other countries, but in the US, evangelical is conservative–or at least that’s the conventional wisdom. We’d all do well to take a vicodin, have a glass of wine, and be a little nicer and not make ourselves out to be victims.
Mainsheet said,
December 15, 2004 at 4:23 pm
Brandon,
Certainly one way to read the opinion poll results is to say that we are awash in a sea of liberalism. Most americans favor reasonable limits on gun ownership, even most NRA members favor them. Most americans oppose capital punishment, when given a reasonable alternative like life without possibility of parole. Most americans believe that the decision to maintain a pregnancy belongs to the woman and her physician, even as they oppose the use of abortion as birth control. Most americans would prefer that schools teach comprehensive sex ed, not the abstinence-only travesty the religious right is pushing.
Of course, some portion of this involves phrasing the question properly, but that’s true of the right’s surveys as well. Fear always seems to work for the right wing.
As far as what I want from conservatives, I demand a decent respect for my religious views. I have a decent respect for their views — I understand them, and I understand that we will have to agree to disagree. What I don’t see from the religious right is any sort of respect for my views.
Speaking of vicodin, have you heard Bill Engvold’s routine about vicodin? Half a vicodin and a Bahama Mama make the world right. I’ve never used it, but if it’s anything like demerol, I doubt the alcohol is necessary…
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January 27, 2005 at 7:03 am
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March 24, 2005 at 6:51 pm
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Jacke said,
November 30, 2005 at 5:32 pm
Brandon, I think we’re on the same page in that you seek respect for your viewpoints, I’m willing to give you that respect. I have been seeking respect for my viewpoints too.
You see, when I first started trying to have discussions with “Progressive” Christians it was out of a little “injury” I felt that “Progressives” felt they had to separate their Christianity from that of Conservatives, in the first place.
In the article that got me interested in Progressive Christians the author wanted to make sure to separate themselves from Conservatives as though judging them, or their agenda, unworthy of the Christian faith. I viewed that as just as disrespectful of Conservative viewpoints as you perceive that Conservative Christians are of your viewpoints.
I do believe you can be a Christian and have a different agenda from mine. On some issues I question how you reconcile them with your faith, but I cannot know the heart of another and make a claim that they are not a Christian. Some would argue that you’ll know them by their fruit, that’s true enough but it still doesn’t give me anymore insight into a person’s heart.
I don’t think we should worry about trying to convince each other how “Christian” we are, only God knows. We can only do the best we can do. I think both of us make an effort to do that, don’t you?
Yes, that’s an intentional smiley. For the record, I don’t tell you how you ought to communicate, I would prefer you not give me lessons on how I should or should not communicate. We always have the option to ask one another to clarify something we don’t understand, don’t we?
Smoochies xxx and hugs 000