12.02.04
an unholy alliance
Randomly searching was I. Just flipping through the random blog. Truly. I was hardly even trying to find a reason to write. When lo and behold I randomly stumble onto a mention of my blog. Wow. The concept that I would be randomly running through the internet and find a mention of myself, I find nearly incomprehensible.
When I recover from this shock, I begin to read the post in more detail. The Proverbial Wife has this to say about Unholy Alliances–of which, I seem to be one. Ah, yes.
I’m really still taken aback by what I’ve read there, but what else is one to expect from “conservative is scriptural” religious right wackjob wingnuts on rampages. Let me give you just an example…but the whole post is worth a read. Here’s some juicy bits to whet your appetite:
I recently stumbled on to “They Will Know Us By Our T-Shirts” which I found quite amusing and insightful–the few posts I read–so I added it to my blogroll. Today I went back and decided to click on the first link in the blogroll, Bad Christian, because the title aroused my curiosity. This guys is proud that he swears, is liberal, etc. In fact, to find out whether you qualify as a “bad Christian”, the author links to a Biblical worldview test, and the lower your score, the worse a Christian you are…which is supposed to be a good thing (I scored high, btw).
Now I’m wondering, why is T-shirt Guy, a.k.a. seminary student, promoting Bad Christian? Perhaps I don’t know T-shirt Guy as well as I thought.
This woman, for fear of linking to objectionable material I suppose, wouldn’t even do the courtesy of offering me a trackback prior to publicly slamming me on her webspace. In fact, she wouldn’t even link to Christian Retail because they link to me!!!
I suppose that it’s convenient for her to forget that ripping a person to shreds–even though her arguments were just about as full of holes as swiss cheese–without offering that person an opportunity to respond or even notifying that person is also highly objectionable. In which case, she should stop linking to herself–at all costs. I’m not going to hold my breath.
Here’s another good bit:
From time to time, I have to delete stuff off my own blogroll when I realize that even if the blog itself is largely ideologically consistent with what I support
So, the moral of the story here is to eliminate ALL voices in your life that aren’t ideologically consistent with yours TO THE LETTER. Fine if you’re God. I’m pretty sure that Ms. Marla Swoffer isn’t.
I guess what gets me most is that I’ve been judged. Marla didn’t come here and really take the time to even try to understand my position on the use of language. That I don’t think the words fuck, shit, damn, ass, etc. are bad words. But, when humans derogate other humans, that’s swearing of the highest order. Marla didn’t care to read that far. She was interested in writing people off as ‘objectionable.’
She writes Andrew Sullivan off because he’s gay, and being gay is clearly not a christian value. Finally, she didn’t come right out and say it, but I don’t think she’d balk at the chance. In not so subtle subtext, there was the concept forwarded that any liberal content was objectionable content.
Marla, grow up. Put that high powered Berkeley journalism education to work. Do some research before you defame my character publicly but are too afraid to link to me. I don’t even care if you don’t like me, but not inviting me to defend myself, that’s just unChristian.
I find it quite enlightening and it brings back memories.
Mainsheet said,
December 2, 2004 at 5:12 pm
Wow.
I want to know how she ever got through Cal. That must have been especially hard with a worldview that says eliminate all influences that aren’t completely consistent with your preconceived notions.
On the other hand, maybe her time at Berkeley did open her mind a little bit. In that instance, I’m scared to think what she was like before then …
I guess Haldane was right — not only is the universe queerer than we imagine, it’s queerer than can imagine.
Audrey
Brandon said,
December 2, 2004 at 5:19 pm
I couldn’t imagine a way to say it better, Audrey.
Marla said,
December 2, 2004 at 5:23 pm
Afraid of linking to you so you can’t defend yourself? Um, no, just trying to be consistent with the post. And in fact, if people really cared, they could click on t-shirt guy, who is still in my blogroll, and then click over to you. Or, if they had any ingenuity, they could do a search for you. Or, they could just click on your name in the comment that you left on my blog–obviously I wasn’t hiding the post from you. Btw, I do link to at least one person who swears, but that’s because she doesn’t act like it’s some sort of virtue. I guess you don’t think that profanities fall under the category of “unwholesome talk” in the Bible (or it doesn’t matter to you) but that my post does.
As far as insulting you–I only repeated what you said here on your blog, that you take pride in swearing and being liberal. In fact, all of the insults have flown the other way. I felt like I couldn’t even comment here after I took the worldview test and scored so “poorly” according to your definition of what a good “bad Christian” is. You have said more harsh words about conservative-minded Christians than I have about liberal-minded ones.
As for the Andrew Sullivan connection, I referred to his homosexuality in the context of the larger political arena–that I questioned the integrity of evangelicals aligning themselves with everyone who bears the stamp of “conservative” for reasons that go beyond that one issue, but that does fit into the category of social liberalism.
Anyway, thanks for devoting an entire post to me, as unflattering as it is, even though I only used your blog (and mildly, at that) as one example of a stream-of-consciousness set of ideas I was trying to get off my chest.
Brandon said,
December 2, 2004 at 5:29 pm
Marla, if it helps you feel better to justify talking about me behind your back, then go ahead and explain away how I was only an ancillary example. It really doesn’t address the issue, though. An ancillary example is an example nonetheless.
P.S. I am farmiliar with the Ephesians passage about unwholesome talk. I don’t think it refers to commonly conceived swear words. I think it has more to do with talking behind people’s backs, etc.
Brandon said,
December 2, 2004 at 5:32 pm
Also, Marla, you act like you’re in some sort of minority being a conservative Christian. I hate to break it to you but evangelical America is a lot different than San Francisco.
Marla said,
December 2, 2004 at 5:42 pm
Well, I guess we can agree on one thing–neither of us has read much of the others’ blogs because your post and your comments make it obvious you don’t know me one bit…and I’m sure you feel the same toward me. Just so you know, I will be linking to this post you wrote, not because I want to prove I wasn’t talking about you behind your back (um, since when is a person’s blog supposed to inform everyone that they’re being talked about?), but because I want to follow up on various comments that were left on my post, as well as what you’ve said here.
Brandon said,
December 2, 2004 at 5:58 pm
A fair question. Generally speaking, in the blogosphere it is common courtesy to offer a trackback whenever you are going to write about a particular post, or link to a blog that you are going to refer to. Just as I did with yours. That way, blog-authors who are commenting on other blogs offer the commentee a chance to represent themselves to the reader of the commenter’s blog. You’d be giving your readers the courtesy of being able to read for themselves just what I’d said…like I did for my readers. That way they can see for themselves if I’m just wacko or if there’s something to what I say. This is an option that also reduces the likelihood of strawman fallacies being king of the day in the blogosphere.
I can understand if you aren’t farmiliar with the norms of the blog world. But that’s part of the reason for such a strong reply. You seemed to be an experienced enough blogger to be farmiliar with the ‘rules.’ I apologize if I was wrong.
Tim said,
December 2, 2004 at 6:03 pm
Audrey said:
“I want to know how she ever got through Cal. That must have been especially hard with a worldview that says eliminate all influences that aren’t completely consistent with your preconceived notions.
On the other hand, maybe her time at Berkeley did open her mind a little bit. In that instance, I’m scared to think what she was like before then …”
Seems a bit ironic to question Marla’s open-mindedness and reference Berkeley of all places. Yep, they’re real big on tolerance of dissenting viewpoints over there…
Tim
Brandon said,
December 2, 2004 at 6:06 pm
Tim,
How would you know? (an honest question)
Have you just ‘heard’ or do you really have some first hand experience?
Christopher said,
December 2, 2004 at 7:06 pm
In my experience, Berkeley is all over the map like many university towns. Yes, it’s more liberal, but you can find folks of all stripes here.
As a Dominican professor of mine once said, “If you mean “shit”, use the word “shit”, not “excrement” or some fancy French whatnot. “Shit” is a good Old English word.”
Vulgarity of language–meaning it is uncouth, not used in high society does not make particular words unwholesome per se. Using words to put down others, gossip, bear false witness, lie…that’s unwholesome langauge. Hell the most socially acceptable words can be unwholesome talk when used to snipe at others through gossip or false witness or to put someone down who is “uncouth”.
Blessings
dejah thoris said,
December 2, 2004 at 8:15 pm
Smug, self-righteous Christians never realize how hypocritical they are when they whine about how others aren’t being “Christian enough” to suit them. Do any of these asshats realize just how stupid they sound when they piss and moan about others? I doubt it. They just get all pruney around the mouth when you point out to them that they are acting like children in need of a good spanking, rather than the Christians they claim to be.
Christians — wouldn’t the world be better off without them?
Resident Atheist said,
December 2, 2004 at 8:47 pm
Depending on your metric, the world might very well be better off without us too.
Cheers,
RA
Tim said,
December 2, 2004 at 9:29 pm
Brandon,
If you mean have I actually been there, no. I have a friend who goes to school there, and this site is interesting: http://www.zombietime.com/how_berkeley_can_you_be/
Yeah, it’s probably all just hearsay right-wing propaganda…
Tim
Brandon said,
December 2, 2004 at 10:25 pm
Deep down, Dejah, yes, there are days I wonder if the world wouldn’t be better off without Christians. I don’t believe it would, but our behaviors are enough to make me muse at the possiblility.
I also find it amazing that Christians are so shocked that the secular US has a negative image of them in comparison to many other religions. Part of this is ego-centrism on the part of many Christians, part of it is because Christians behave like such assholes so much of the time.
Benjamin said,
December 2, 2004 at 10:55 pm
Brandon -
I just wanted to say that I think you’re one bad bad motherfucker. Now let’s get our asses down to Hooters and catch the bible study.
Dan Olson said,
December 2, 2004 at 11:39 pm
I’m somewhat scared of people who scored highly on that test. I’m even more scared of people who scored highly on that test and don’t realize that a great deal of it has nothing to do with Christianity.
Brandon, I don’t know you very well, but in a sense weren’t you “asking” for this kind of treatment when you registered badchristian.com? It just adds to the satire of it all, I’d think.
Brandon said,
December 3, 2004 at 12:12 am
Yes, Dan. I suppose I was. I’d hoped, however, that folks would see satire rather than revelry in badness.
Now, let’s get our asses down to Hooters in Nebraska.
BTW…Benjamin, do you do homebrew? I don’t know you but any dude with his own smoker seems like homebrew might be his thing.
Janet said,
December 3, 2004 at 8:26 am
Comment streams like the above are why I keep coming back for more badchristian.
wanderer said,
December 3, 2004 at 9:18 am
I have read the entries and comments on both blogs and from the outside looking in I think maybe the motives of the ‘Proverbial’ wife has been misunderstood. I think she could probably take a few swear words and weather anything outside her ‘comfort’ zone. She seems pretty tough.
I do think she feels a responsibility to her readers though. She was simply wondering how far does she go? Will her readers understand if she links or doesn’t link to certain things? Where does someone draw the line? Does a line need to be drawn at all? I think some disclaimers would be good…’I find this blog insightful and helpful but the owner does use colorful metaphors’ or whatever.I do think most resonable people can by just clicking on a site once and having a look around can make up their own minds.
For the record I’m not offended by this blog as I used to be a ‘bad christian’ myself at one time.
I find it quite enlightening and it brings back memories.
wanderer
Brandon said,
December 3, 2004 at 10:11 am
I’m curious about the process you’ve gone through, Wanderer. Do you have a blog that details where you’ve come from, where you are, and what it was like to get there? Or, could you just tell us?
Benjamin said,
December 3, 2004 at 10:18 am
Oh yes, Homebrew. I’d probably like to give it a try, but I’m not allowed. I’ve reached my hobby quota with the fishtank, and I’m not ready to chuck them out yet. But should the wife take an extended vacation….
Christopher said,
December 3, 2004 at 11:41 am
Hooters? Ugghhh…we may have to have more than one Bible study.
wanderer said,
December 3, 2004 at 3:31 pm
My experience. It might bore you. I was raised Fundamentalist Baptist, attended Bob Jones U. (didn’t graduate) went evangelical as an adult and was nothing for quite a while. Came close to agnosticism and was brought back to the fold by U2. Really.
I’m now a Catholic. A route taken by a surprising number of former evangelical/fundamentalists. We are for the most part quite happy with our decision.
I’m working on getting a blog started where I will go into greater detail with all this. Its going to be called “Stalking Jesus’.
Nice to meet you.
wanderer
Brandon said,
December 3, 2004 at 3:39 pm
My friend, there’s absolutely nothing that sounds boring about Bob Jones…frightening, yes. Boring? Hell no.
U2 eh?
Nice to meet a fellow Jesus stalker.
Benjamin said,
December 3, 2004 at 6:44 pm
You know why they don’t dare have sex standing up at Bob Jones U?
God might think they’re dancing….
Pat said,
December 3, 2004 at 11:45 pm
Is that what that “backtrack” thing is for? I always wondered.
Does God care if we say “shit” or “fuck?” I don’t think so. If she does, I’m in deep shit.
Does God care if we use words to hurt others? Of course. That’s the ugliness that comes out of a mouth.